Sergio gets the snake
- Thread starter Matt 4-L
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Tough to watch. The kick-in for birdie on 18 did not look particularly convincing either. Amazing how fast that can get bermuda these days.
Speaking of Sergio...could someone help me find the mark-up Brian recently did on Sergio with the dots '' stuff showing the vertical arm/hand path dealy. I have searched long enough! Thank in advance.
Speaking of Sergio...could someone help me find the mark-up Brian recently did on Sergio with the dots '' stuff showing the vertical arm/hand path dealy. I have searched long enough! Thank in advance.
peterjthomps
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Here you go ScottRob, the post Brian did on Sergio.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...oss-line-now-manzella-video-7.html#post189257
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...oss-line-now-manzella-video-7.html#post189257
Richie3Jack
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Heath Slocum is a better ballstriker and worse putter
3JACK
3JACK
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I would say that is your opinion and one not shared by many.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
I agree with Kevin.
Slocum is a good ball striker statistically speaking, but Sergio is on another planet when it comes to talent, power, accuracy and functionality. Sergio has a swing that is akin to a work of modern art. Eclectic in presentation, functional in its use.
Slocum is a good ball striker statistically speaking, but Sergio is on another planet when it comes to talent, power, accuracy and functionality. Sergio has a swing that is akin to a work of modern art. Eclectic in presentation, functional in its use.
Richie3Jack
New
Quite frankly, I'd take good sound statistics over what sounds 'sexy.'
Slocum has been better statistically in proximity to the cup than Sergio, GIR, Fwy % and proximity to the edge of fwy (on fairways that were missed). He's more accurate than Sergio has been in the past 5 years, period.
Overall, Slocum was slightly better from 2006-2009, but then Sergio had a very bad year in 2010 striking the ball. The statistics completely back it up and Slocum has never even remotely come close to striking the ball that bad.
Now, that doesn't mean Sergio can't get it back...but it does show that Slocum also has had consistency working for him as well.
Where Sergio is really good is out of the rough. He routinely has some of the best proximity to the cups from the rough on Tour. Although that really doesn't matter as much as most people think because it's performance from the fairway that matters much more on the PGA Tour.
3JACK
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Richie, do you consider Mac one of the best ball strikers of all time?
WoodbridgeGolf37
New
I guess you missed his shank in the Bear Trap a few weeks back...
Matt 4-L
New
Statistics don't always tell the truth. Just because somebody hits more greens and fairways doesn't mean they are better ball strikers. For example, guys who shoot at pins versus a guy who plays to the center of the green is probably going to have better gir stats. My college stats prof use to say all the time, you can make numbers say whatever you want them to...To tell you the truth I have never really studied Slocum's swing so I can't really debate you if he is a better ball striker or not.
Something has always struck me as odd about Sergio:
I've seen clips of him a few years back carrying the green from 250 with a 4-iron, uphill. However, when I look at his driving distance stats on PGAtour.com, he ranks 50th. Also, I've seen him in rounds get outdriven (although not substantially) by guys that aren't supposed to be as powerful. But he seems to absolutely BOMB his irons.
What gives? Does he hit down on his driver, or hold back a little?
I've seen clips of him a few years back carrying the green from 250 with a 4-iron, uphill. However, when I look at his driving distance stats on PGAtour.com, he ranks 50th. Also, I've seen him in rounds get outdriven (although not substantially) by guys that aren't supposed to be as powerful. But he seems to absolutely BOMB his irons.
What gives? Does he hit down on his driver, or hold back a little?
Richie3Jack
New
I've heard from many people that I trust, who have no stake whatsoever in O'Grady's ballstriking prowess say that they consider him one of the best of all time. In fact, there's a golf pro at my club who was caddying for a friend in a tournament that O'Grady was in and he was amazed by how well Mac struck it. And I've read guys like Curtis Strange say the same thing.
That being said, I don't want to take anything at face value.
My guess is that you're trying to sucker me with some stats that Brian pointed out long ago of Mac not being that impressive statistically, outside of driving distance, when he play on the Tour.
If so, then you're not reading what I'm saying because those stats were, IIRC....driving distance, fwy %, GIR %.
I don't really care about those stats.
And I'm not using those stats to compare Slocum to Sergio.
I'm talking about more advanced statistics based on proximity to the cup along with driving statistics that go *beyond* fwy %.
Sergio's 2010 season in particular consisted of:
132nd in fwy % (Slocum was 7th)
173rd in prox to edge of fwy (on drives fairway missed). (Slocum was 5th)
He hit the driver awful last year. He couldn't hit fairways with any consistency and when he missed, he often missed big time (by an average of 30.5 feet last year).
He was 87th in total proximity to the cup. Which really doesn't mean he strikes the ball great, but he should be closer to the cup on average than Slocum because he hits the ball much further....except Slocum was 12th last year in total proximity to the cup.
In the stat that matters the most on Tour, Proximity to The Cup from 175-225 yards, Sergio finished 108th last year (Slocum 12th)
Again, I don't think Sergio is a bad ballstriker by any standards. I think Slocum is better. But we are talking the top of world class ballstriking here.
3JACK
Richie3Jack
New
I agree.
And I'm saying I AM NOT USING GIR%.
There's obvious flaws in it. And that's why I do not use it.
One of the very best ballstrikers I've found statistically?
David Toms.
Easily top 10 on the PGA Tour each year.
He's known as a top 10 putter, but he's really more of a 40-90th ranked putter, which is still pretty good. But he doesn't make his money from putting, he makes it from being a great ballstriker. He's just not hopelessly incompetent with the putter like many great ballstrikers are.
3JACK
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Not trying to sucker you, but I would trade John Mahaffey's ball striking for Mac's back in the day, just like I would Slocum's for Sergio.
Sergio had a bad year last year, Slocum didn't. It happens. I am a big fan of Heath Slocum and his game/swing. You put both of them at their best and I think Sergio hits it better and closer all day.
I do agree that proximity stats are a much better gauge of who is hitting it well at the moment, but to me the "it" in ball striking is being able to hit a shot based on a desirable outcome rather than what is always "safe". That is IMO, the difference between a Slocum and a Garcia. Garcia thinks he can hit any shot, any time and has the talent to do so. The results aren't always there. This is in comparison to Slocum, who probably has not taken a risky shot on a golf course since he was 12...thus better stats, proximity or otherwise.
Sergio hits the shot he feels he needs to hit and his swing speed in the past has been up there with the longer hitters, I do think he hits down with the driver a bit much.
Sergio had a bad year last year, Slocum didn't. It happens. I am a big fan of Heath Slocum and his game/swing. You put both of them at their best and I think Sergio hits it better and closer all day.
I do agree that proximity stats are a much better gauge of who is hitting it well at the moment, but to me the "it" in ball striking is being able to hit a shot based on a desirable outcome rather than what is always "safe". That is IMO, the difference between a Slocum and a Garcia. Garcia thinks he can hit any shot, any time and has the talent to do so. The results aren't always there. This is in comparison to Slocum, who probably has not taken a risky shot on a golf course since he was 12...thus better stats, proximity or otherwise.
Sergio hits the shot he feels he needs to hit and his swing speed in the past has been up there with the longer hitters, I do think he hits down with the driver a bit much.
Richie3Jack
New
I'd rather investigate. I dunno...Dave Barr's stats sorta look really good. He may have been the best ballstriker during his prime. Or maybe not.
I understand Sergio had a bad year. I think if both of them are at their best I would take Sergio because he's much longer off the tee and he's probably the best on Tour out of the rough. But I don't think ballstriking is about when guys are at their very best. To me it's more of a cumulative over time deal. John Daly in his prime was probably better than anybody when he was on top of his game. Blew everybody away at Crooked Stick because he was finding the fairways that week and hitting it 50-80 yards further than the rest of the field. Doesn't make me think he's the best ballstriker on Tour or that I would think he was a better ballstriker than Tom Kite.
Phil Mickelson thinks he can hit any shot at any time and has the talent to do so. He's even more daring that Sergio. Doesn't make him a great ballstriker or even better than Sergio.
This makes no sense.
He's hitting shots on average *closer* to the cup than Sergio. He's not just getting it on the green and making a GIR, he's actually getting it closer. That's kinda the name of the game. So either Slocum is taking risks or Sergio is just playing dumb golf.
And do you really believe that Slocum never takes risky shots?
3JACK
Sergio hits the shot he feels he needs to hit and his swing speed in the past has been up there with the longer hitters, I do think he hits down with the driver a bit much.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Richie, While the stats don't back me up, for last year anyway, Sergio, IMO, is the better ball striker. That said, I would take the game of Heath Slocum. Given the choice however, and I would take Sergio.
I was exaggerating a bit about Heath, of course he tries daring shots, just not to the degree that Garcia does.
I was exaggerating a bit about Heath, of course he tries daring shots, just not to the degree that Garcia does.
aaron_lohan
New
Does proximity to the cup include greens that where missed?
Richie3Jack
New
Yes.
It counts everything on the green and 'around the green.' They consider anything to be 'around the green' on shots that within 30 yards from the green.
3JACK
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
The best way to tell the best ballstrikers is to ask guys on Tour. mike Donald told me in 94' that everyone knows Fred Couples is the best ball striker in the world. He has more shots and never misses the center of the face. So im certain if you polled the Tour on who is the best pure ballstriker you'd get a better feel for it than any stat.
As far as the best striker and worst putter, id say Chris Smith had them both beat.
As far as the best striker and worst putter, id say Chris Smith had them both beat.
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