Seriously good impact video (and a Manzella Still)

[Brian Manzella]

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[Brian Manzella]

I've videoed a lot of folks from the overhead view close up at 1000fps 1/8000thsec, nowhere near what this camera does, and nowhere near the quality.

AND without fail, they are look like the above or even straighter.

WITH LESS "rate of closure" then this.

Rate of closure?

Geez....


Down where it matters, nobody has any to speak of!!!!

 

[Todd Dugan]

I've videoed a lot of folks from the overhead view close up at 1000fps 1/8000thsec, nowhere near what this camera does, and nowhere near the quality.

AND without fail, they are look like the above or even straighter.

WITH LESS "rate of closure" then this.

Rate of closure?

Geez....


Down where it matters, nobody has any to speak of!!!!

Right. Which is why I no longer worry that my clubface might be more open to path if impacting before low point, or more closed to path if impacting after low point. The face-to-path just isn't changing through the impact zone, to speak of.

 

[wulsy]

OK, when does the face to path change then? IOW at what point in the downswing is the face to path relationship predetermined?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Rate of closure?

Geez....

The notion 'rate of closure' is useful in macroscale only, i.e. when differing crossover release from the other two in a much larger period of the arc than shown on this vid. As stated before, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to know what type of release is being used on base of observing the very tight impact zone where this notion is completely useless.

Cheers

 

[bax1865]

I apologize if this is a dumb question. The TM numbers are for what time period? Is it for the time period of impact to maximum compression or a period of time that is indicated by the blue line that is drawn in the picture?

 

[birly-shirly]

OK - I haven't done sums like this for a good few years, but I'll lay out my working so please take me to task for errors in method.

Taking Brian's still - the ball measures a diameter on screen of 48mm. I don't think the ball has compressed yet. 1.68 inches = 43mm. So Brian's still is scaled up 48:43.

I can't measure the distance travelled by the leading edge, but the top edge appears to travel 107mm along Brian's blue line, so a "real world" lateral distance of 96mm.

Clubhead speed is 86.7mph, or 38.8metres/sec, or 38800mm/sec.

So that clubhead travelled that 96mm in 0.0025sec.

I can't directly measure the angle of the leading edge, but I measured the change in angle of the top edge to be approx 4.5*.

It doesn't look like a lot on screen - but in the time interval, that relates to a clubhead rotating at 1800* per sec.

I accept that the measurement of the change in face angle isn't terribly precise. I'd have preferred to measure the leading edge rather than top edge, and I can't say for sure what if any visual distortion there might be as a result. My point is that a rotation of only 2 degrees in that interval would be hardly noticeable on-screen, but still indicate a rotation of hundreds of degrees per sec.

So what does that mean? Is hundreds, or thousands of degrees of rotation per second a "fast rate of clubhead closure" or not?

 

[wulsy]

Interesting point birls.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I agree, good points, but first we shall need to separate the rate of closure of the arc (which is a biokinetic necessity) from the rate of closure of releasing torques in the arms/hands section (intentional or unintentional - which is also biokinetic necessity, does not matter now).

Cheers

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here are my points.

I sort of prefer a swing idea that I call:

#1 - "Put the club in the 'Hot-Wheels' track with the arm and shoulder tumble, and keep it in the track with pivot."

I invented the concept in a lesson with Lindsey Newman, so he can maybe chime in.

Anyhoo, if you do that, the club doesn't make much up a curve to and through the ball, and the clubface isn't flapping around open to close either.

THAT'S WHAT I TEACH.

​

#2 - There is flat spot in the golf swing, a point on the curve that for a variety of reasons, is like a straightened out piece of a hula hoop. Down by the ball, like an area twice as big as the video above, the path and the face doesn't VISUALLY CHANGE MUCH AT ALL.

Past the ball, the rotation is pretty much pattern and subject dependent, and is VERY MUCH NOT RELATED to the "to the ball" segment.

LOOKING PAST THE BALL ON VIDEO FOR FACE ROTATION IS LIKE COMPARING APPLES TO BUFFALOS.

​

#3 - If you look at the rotation profiles during the release phase of the clubface, the left wrist, or anything that cause the face to close, you'd see MASSIVE ROTATION!!! Just like Birly did the math of above. Take enough of this out, and you get NON-GOLF LIKE movements.

EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY IS ROTATING LIKE CRAZY ON 3D, BALL CONTROL MUST BE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

​

Get it ??

 

[wulsy]

EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY IS ROTATING LIKE CRAZY ON 3D, BALL CONTROL MUST BE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

​

Get it ??

Could you elaborate briefly on this point? What is ball control about then?

 

[tongzilla]

The thesis is:

Minimizing the rate of clubface closure doesn't necessary improve ball control.
Nor is there an optimal rate of closure.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What is ball control about then?

Resultant Path and Clubface Point.

The D-Plane.

And body positing and movement to support it in a given pattern.

 

[Dariusz J.]

There is flat spot in the golf swing, a point on the curve that for a variety of reasons, is like a straightened out piece of a hula hoop.

Hmmm...assumming it is a circular path - what physical phenomenon could make this flat part to occur ?

EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY IS ROTATING LIKE CRAZY ON 3D, BALL CONTROL MUST BE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

Of course. Depends what is the distance between the "engine" of this rotation and the axis of rotation. What else it could be ? If there is "else" it must be called talent.

Cheers

 

[Robbohank]

Hmmm...assumming it is a circular path - what physical phenomenon could make this flat part to occur ?




Cheers

I believe the "flat spot" is a result of the CP moving up combined with the right wrist flattening.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I believe the "flat spot" is a result of the CP moving up combined with the right wrist flattening.

Interesting answer -- so, it means Brian thought only about "going normal" release, not about release as general phenomenon ?

Cheers

 

[Michael Finney]

Nesbit's hub (hand) path versus geometric center of rotation describes the relationship of the hands and and it's "swing center" (not anatomical)....

What Brian is talking about could obviously be charted also......the club head path versus its geometric center of rotation (definitley not anatomical)....

what is being noticed is that the club does not make a perfect circle around a FIXED hub....the club path is sharper and flatter in different parts of the swing.....the flatter travel down by the ball (squished hula hoop) does not make this club head path non-circular - it is just moving on a much bigger circle....it would be interesting the to see the circles contract and grow during the swing - any one have a USGA grant and a good computer?

 

[Dariusz J.]

what is being noticed is that the club does not make a perfect circle around a FIXED hub....the club path is sharper and flatter in different parts of the swing.....the flatter travel down by the ball (squished hula hoop) does not make this club head path non-circular - it is just moving on a much bigger circle....it would be interesting the to see the circles contract and grow during the swing - any one have a USGA grant and a good computer?

Pretty good answer as well -- larger radius because of a necessity of having a radius even when the hub moves linearily (because it cannot offset it totally)...but is it happening exactly in the time of impact ? The shift happens usually earlier.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

Sorry - I'm not sure I'm getting this. This thread seems to say:

(A) - that clubface rotation in the shortly pre-impact phase is not happening to any significant extent for anyone; but also
(B) - if you do the math, then everyone is rotating like crazy.

I agree, that the picture looks like (A), but that the insanely short interval covered by the sequence suggests (B).

What's "Clubface Point" - the point of impact relative to clubhead CoG?

Maybe clubface rotation isn't part of the D-plane, but clubface orientation at impact certainly is.

1800* per sec is just a number. I'm not saying that it's high or low, but is there any empirical evidence to show that the number doesn't vary between players?

 

[cwdlaw223]

Is the earth flat or round? I think it depends upon the view. We might be looking at 1-2" in distance over a very long period of time with the video given the 10,000 fps.