Set-up, grip, alignment, d-plane

[nevermind]

These are some thoughts I've had after watching Brian's latest d-plane vid and they sort of follow on from birly-shirly's post #49 from that thread and that other thread I started with the equally stupid title "Clubhead CG and large shot shape".

My assumptions

1. A grip that has the left wrist and clubface matching.

2. If we're after a straight shot we should take impact fix with the clubface aiming down the true path of the sweetpot (I think?).

Since getting into TGM and Brian I've been setting up for straight shots so that at impact fix my plane line, left wrist and clubface all point at the target and I wanted to focus on getting my left wrist back to that square to my plane line position at impact. Now reading and watching more about the 3d nature of impact I see that my understanding was incomplete and wrong. So onto the questions.

At impact, would it be better to have the left wrist:

A - matching the true path/clubface, therefore varying in relation to your body, target and plane line on most swings but staying constant in relation to the sweetspot... or

B - keep the left wrist aligned square to your plane line on every swing and manipulate the club open and closed in your grip?

I see these as options but maybe one is better.

I'm thinking a constant left wrist impact alignment might be better, so twist the grip. But then again, griping the club varying amounts open and closed for every shot would mean that the clubheads centre of gravity(s) would be different for every swing and it would be very hard to groove a feel, I imagine.

Hope I haven't confused absolutely everyone

 

[birly-shirly]

I get where you're coming from. Obviously, I had similar questions about clubface alignment. I don't have any hard and fast answers.

One possible answer is that it doesn't matter. I think that TGM historically over-estimated the amount of clubface rotation during impact. I think their emphasis on clubface alignment at separation was technically correct but practically irrelevant, if that makes sense. A similar answer could apply here, that the amount of clubface rotation within the area of the arc that we're talking about just isn't significant.

Another possible, or partial, answer is that where you position the ball relative to low point might help to minimise the differences between clubs. In this case, guys who move the ball back for shorter irons might be making life more difficult for themselves - at least from the point of view of consistency of clubface alignment. Then again, solidity of strike or control of trajectory or spin might more than make up for the added difficulty, so you couldn't say it was outright wrong.

I have no proof that either of these approaches is actually correct. But life would be simpler if they were!

 

[softconsult]

Let's say I answer that option A is the best.

How in the world are you ever going to measure that?
To my way of thinking, that is a key question to answer
before proceeding down the road of golf swing as technical
minutia.

Example. Brian is the king of technically understanding the golf
swing. In my lesson with Brian, there was no discussion of questions
like you are posing. Grip? Yes, we worked for 30 minutes refining my
grip, but the discussion was in plain english. My lesson was pre-Trackman,
but I suspect understandable explanations are still his norm.

I'm simply suggesting that you think hard about how you will know
that you actually changed some aspect of your swing, given that
you decided on A, or B, or ....... Because if, you think you made the
change, but you really didn't, then you are only further lost in the maze.

 

[nevermind]

Yeah the details are fine but it still seems like a basic issue to me.

My very simple intention for a long time has been to get my flat left wrist square to my plane line at impact, for a straight shot. I don't know if I ever lived up to my intention but it was something to aim for anyway. Now I find that that simple plan wasn't really helping. So, I want to discuss some of the finer details so that I can make a new and improved simple plan.

I changed my grip when I read Brian's article years ago, the idea of the left wrist and clubface matching made things simpler, I like simple. If I keep that alignment I need to start thinking "I'm hitting down on this shot X amount so I should try to have my left wrist open Y amount at impact". Actually saying it like that makes it seem the simpler option.

If the left wrist and therefor clubface are square to the plan line at low point then they should be open on the way down and closed on the way up, but will they be open the right amount? Birly, I too like to think the answer is yes. But do you need to have ahhhh it's way too late my mind is firing off on tangents again night all!

 

[softconsult]

But what you are focusing on is a result of the other things that come before impact.

You talk about thinking that you are going to hit down. You need to work on pivot,
ball position etc. that created that downward strike during the swing motion.

Another Brian example. He watches me down the line and then shoots me with the Casio.
Shows me my open clubface at the top. We try twistaway. Can't repeat it. So we go to
the grip. He explains that neutral is nice , but for me he wanted to try slightly closed. So
we tried several degrees of closed until we ball flight improved. Once changes like this are
made you just swing. You don't try to think about whether your clubface is aligned with your
left wrist at impact.

 

[savydan]

NM, is your final goal to have all 5 Trackman numbers nailed down for each club in your bag?

HSP, VSP, Club Face, Club Path, AoA, and "Wrist Angle".

Is that where this is going?

 

[nevermind]

Soft, I will never see Brian, get on a trackman or most likely even see my swing on video so I reckon I need an image/thought/intention in my mind that I have no doubts about in order to improve. I shoot in the mid 70's but I want more. I'm not worried about locking down numbers, I just wanted to hear opinions, go with the concensus if there was one and never worry about it again.

My starting point was soo far wrong that this thread wasn't really needed. I should have never wanted my left wrist square to my plane line at impact, and likely I never achieved it anyway. So my concern that I'd now need to leave that ideal alignment behind was just stupid. The idea of getting my mind in my left hand made sense when I could then use that feel to create, hopefully, a constant impact alignment, but knowing now that the left wrist will have different alignments, in relation to the plane, throughout my bag I wonder if it's any help at all.

Should we to try have our minds in our hands and control the clubface, to some extend anyway, or trust that all the other aspects of our swing will take care of that themselves?

 

[softconsult]

If you already shoot in the mid 70's, then I would question whether
all this analysis will be beneficial. Could mess you up.

Maybe focusing on short game and putting would be a better approach to
capturing 5 or 6 shots.

 

[nevermind]

Your right. Like most my scores would benefit much from short game work but I enjoy playing golf swing just as much as golf, my putting attests to that. When I first got into all this theory stuff years ago I wasn't playing much but the learning fascinated me, then the more I played the more I wanted to stick with just a few fundamental ideas and train myself to implement them consistently. Now, I finally get into the d-plane stuff and I want to find out how to use it to my advantage.

I was pretty sure I knew the changes to make with my plane line but wasn't too sure about the clubface and grip. I've decided now. For straight shots, at impact fix, I will aim my left wrist and clubface at at my target, as usual. I think I'll then leave those alignments in place when I take my standard address. With that locked in I'll experiment to find out how far left or right I need the plane line aiming in order to have my resulting true path pointing at the target with each club. If that sounds wrong I hope someone tells me.

I should apologise for airing my questions first instead of searching the forum for answers. I'm sure they were out there. Thanks for chipping in guys.

 

[rprevost]

What does BM do in his videos? In the Soft Draw, he says aim a little to the right and draw a straight plane line. This will create the draw, because, as we now know, of the D-plane, not because of horizontally hinging. To get a fade, you have to reconfigure the plane line to get the right D-plane characteristics. That is what he does in NHA. In those two patterns, he changes the grip slightly, I am supposing, because the different grip will change the face angle at impact. At least that is what my untutored, bogey-golfer understanding makes of it. Option B seems to me the better option.