Shanking—the STONE TRUTH.

[Brian Manzella]

There was a thread started by "brucifier" about whether or not you could shank without "lagging the hosel."

There was some very "TGM book heavy" answers and comments by twitch, who seems to know the book very well.

As a thread, it was next to UNREADABLE. My bad. For the past five and a half months I have been building my house, moving in to my house, and trying to keep up with my work. No chance. I am almost finished, but this thread needed CPR, but I wasn't able to save it. So I put the corpse in the "freezer."

The "question/statement" that "brucifier" was trying to make was that I, your host, Brian Manzella, was worng in telling folks that the only way you can shank a ball is by "lagging the hosel."

He, and "Chris Sturgess," who I am not sure has ever agreed with me, were perhaps handicapped by what they PERCEIVE my definition of "lagging the hosel" to be.

Basically, they seem to think that it means—opening the face so much that the hosel is started at the ball, instead of the sweetspot.

Not quite.

I apologize for the over-simplification of this concept in some of my videos. This is because 95% of the time, the shank happens just like I show in the vids.

But, that is NOT actually the CONCEPT.

The concept is that at ANY TIME IN THE DOWNSWING, the golfer can SUBSTITUTE the feel of the sweetspot, for the FEEL of the sweetspot with the hosel in the way.

PERIOD.

That is what CAUSES the shank.

This is why you don't see most folks hit the ball ON THE SHAFT part of the hosel (although raw beginners do all the time), they (shankers) hit the part between the hosel and the face.

All those other things so eloquently explained by everyone—like the weight moving to the toes—are things that CAUSE the hosel to get in the way of the sweetspot.

Lets look at the weight on the toes part as an example...

If standing too close or moving toward the ball (on the toes) caused shanking all by themselves, that would also cause shots that went through your legs, which CAN happen if you hit the INSIDE of the hosel.

No folks, what HAPPENS when you are or move too close is simply this:

You start to TRY TO FIT THE WHOLE POWER PACKAGE (arms-hands-club unit) IN. Becuase if you don't you WHIFF IT, or hit it on the shaft, or hit it on the INSIDE of the shaft.

You see, the FIT IN MOVE is almost always a below the plane move that for a spilt second, gets that darn outside portion of the hosel in the way of the sweetspot.

I know my critics won't agree, but I am am laying "in wait" for you. I have 5 months of built up energy waiting...

Make my day.

 

[brucifer]

Basically, they seem to think that it means—opening the face so much that the hosel is started at the ball, instead of the sweetspot.

Brian,

This is what I thought you meant, naive or taking you too literally, on my part perhaps.

And this is why I got confused by the rotate the sweetspot advice "right thumb off" etc, as to me, I was rotating the sweetspot and getting the face square.

Unfortunately I seemed to be hitting the hosel with the face square. And as you point out, the marks on my new Mizuno MP 57 irons (gutted) were on the face side of the hosel.

All I was trying to find out was, what were the other potential causes of shanking?

I know, previously, you've addressed the rotation of the sweetspot, and some beginners not grasping that concept, but there are others like myself who manage to shank whilst rotating the sweetspot fine.

Now we have standing too close as a potential cause, and a great explanation.

So, I doubt the causes are limitless, so is there anything else that may cause it?

Its good to have you back, I've been reading your posts and know you are up to your eyes.

Thankyou,
B

 

[twitch127]

The concept is that at ANY TIME IN THE DOWNSWING, the golfer can SUBSTITUTE the feel of the sweetspot, for the FEEL of the sweetspot with the hosel in the way.

PERIOD.

That is what CAUSES the shank.

Brian,

Do you mean by this concept that a swinger must ensure during the downswing that he returns the pressure of the #3 PP to behind the shaft as opposed to returning it under the shaft where it moved to when the power package was loaded at the top.

Could you not return the the #3 PP to behind the shaft and still shank if you are moving your hands with your hands ie. a swinger using an angle of approach procedure (you can't swing in a straight line and a circle at the same time)

Twitch

 

[dsmith2296]

At address, the hosel is 1.5 - 2 inches from the ball. If you shank, the hozel is 0 - 0.5 inches from the ball. What happened? The hozel got closer to the ball at impact than it was at address.

Why did the hozel get closer? Perhaps you crowded the ball at address with hands to close to the body and centrifical force took them further from the body at impact.

Or perhaps you had your weight on your heels at address and your desire to swing down and out brought your weight to your toes at impact.

It doesn't matter if your clubhead is in slice or in hook position. If the hozel gets too close to the ball, you will shank. If you are real bad, you may send it leftwards off the other side of the hosel, but probably not between your legs because there is forward force.

Perhaps you mind creates an imaginary sweet spot, I don't know. Bottom line, you cannot shank if you don't allow the hosel to get closer to the ball at impact than it was at address, unless you address it off the hosel.

 

[Brian Manzella]

???

Why will NOBODY answer this simple question?

If standing or moving too close to the ball causes shanks—without anything to do with the sweetspot being blocked by the hosel—why do people with the shanks not hit shots of the CENTER of the shaft's hosel (a straight ground ball), or a shot that hits the INSIDE of the shaft's hosel (a very left-ward roller)???

Huh?

 

[brucifer]

Why will NOBODY answer this simple question?

If standing or moving too close to the ball causes shanks—without anything to do with the sweetspot being blocked by the hosel—why do people with the shanks not hit shots of the CENTER of the shaft's hosel (a straight ground ball), or a shot that hits the INSIDE of the shaft's hosel (a very left-ward roller)???

Huh?

I'm trying to work this out in my own limited frame of reference, is it...

Because they are aware of the feeling of the sweetspot in their hands, but they haven't

a) rotated the clubface or
b) are below plane ( with an attempted correction driving the hosel toward the ball)

Could b) be a result of an arched left wrist?

You really are back with a vengeance now eh!?

B

 

[tongzilla]

Brian, do you think I good way to (temporarily) fix the shank is to tell the golfer to try and hit the toe of the club? (but setting up with the ball centre of the face).

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Brian, do you think I good way to (temporarily) fix the shank is to tell the golfer to try and hit the toe of the club? (but setting up with the ball centre of the face).

what everyone seems to not understand is that you when you are hitting good shots you are lagging the sweetspot and can FEEL THAT thus you bring that to the ball and poof, sweetspot hit ball and ball flight away.

when people get the shanks they are mistaking the feel of the sweetspot with the HOSEL and they then bring that to ball and hosel hit ball and then CLANNNNNNNNK.

 

[dsmith2296]

There are degrees of bad shanks. I know better than all. Chris Hamburger just helped me fix mine today by having me keep my left forearm ABOVE my right forarm while tilting more and NOT letting my head go laterally past the ball. Now I can't reach out with my clubhead as far as I could if my right forearm had already rolled over my left forearm BEFORE impact and I moved laterally forward.-- Try it-- address the ball with your right forearm under your left with axis tilt. Now keep that ball there and lunge your head forward a bit, lose all tilt, and rol your right forearm over your left. Your clubhead will now be WELL PAST the ball!!

That being said, Brian, I was shanking at all degrees and hitting grounders too. Luckily, I guess, I was only letting the ball get b/w .0001 and .5 inches from the hosel and did not let it go on the other side-- in the negative.

It had nothing to do with an open or shut clubface. When I hit one flush with a 7-iron, it was a powerful 170 yard draw that looked like I was a golfer.

So to answer your question, I guess some degree of athleticism will prevent some golfers from shanking on the other side of the shaft....

 

[sonofflipper]

I had a chance to play golf with a very good player about 2 months ago at the course I work at here on Hilton Head. After going birdie, birdie he stood on the third tee with a 7 iron to a back right pin (over water)... shank. SPLASH. Even though he finished the round with a 73, I will never forget that tee shot. So, the next time I played the hole I tried to swing the club just like he did. He got the club VERY inside on the backswing... sure enough, right off the pipe. I understand weight on the toes, closer to ball at impact... but what I saw, and felt for myself, was a shank based more on swingpath and the club moving from the inside moving outside the line?? Could this be correct? I tried the same shot again and felt the left hip turn instead of slide (through impact) and it seemed to fix the path.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Why will NOBODY answer this simple question?

If standing or moving too close to the ball causes shanks—without anything to do with the sweetspot being blocked by the hosel—why do people with the shanks not hit shots of the CENTER of the shaft's hosel (a straight ground ball), or a shot that hits the INSIDE of the shaft's hosel (a very left-ward roller)???

Huh?

You have to be kidding me. I answered this question before in another thread in detail and you didn't listen to it and deleted the thread. So I am probably wasting my time by telling you again that even with a perfectly square clubface the part of the hosel closest the the ball (where a normal shank occurs that goes right) gets hit because.....it is closest to the ball, only an inch or so off the sweet spot. The center of the shaft is a little farther from the ball so it is a little harder to screw up that badly and since the hosel is rounded hitting it in the center is very hard to do. Hitting the hosel on the side closest to the golfer is even harder to do since it's even farther away from the sweetspot. Only a raw beginner golfer would make that big of an error, but that does happen occasionally with them. I don't disagree with everything you say, that is silly, I agree with plenty, but you are occasionally wrong about some things (like this) and are way too proud to admit it.

 

[lia41985]

Chris, you're right that the shank can occur with a perfectly square clubface. But what Brian is trying to say is that the reason why you would contact the ball with the hosel is because your confusing the feel of the hosel for the feel of the sweetspot.

 

[jmessner]

Why will NOBODY answer this simple question?

If standing or moving too close to the ball causes shanks—without anything to do with the sweetspot being blocked by the hosel—why do people with the shanks not hit shots of the CENTER of the shaft's hosel (a straight ground ball), or a shot that hits the INSIDE of the shaft's hosel (a very left-ward roller)???

Huh?

So if you move 2 inches closer to the ball, if all stays the same you should theoretically ricochet the ball off your left ankle - but it doesn't happen. I assume it's because the body wants to compensate in some way and this feedback is done through the visual position of the ball (or aiming point), and the "feel" of the clubhead (sweetspot or hosel or somewhere in between). So, while the clubhead could even be square at impact, if you're feeling the hosel, the compensation doesn't quite get you to center impact and off to the right it may go. Just throwing something out there.

 

[birdie_man]

Chris at least you have booles.

 

[twitch127]

Why will NOBODY answer this simple question?

If standing or moving too close to the ball causes shanks—without anything to do with the sweetspot being blocked by the hosel—why do people with the shanks not hit shots of the CENTER of the shaft's hosel (a straight ground ball), or a shot that hits the INSIDE of the shaft's hosel (a very left-ward roller)???

They can if there bad enough!! Golfers can do anything!

Playing around with a plane board, a couple of lasers and some face tape and found out a few things>

Shanking is caused by a TANGENT force vector. Think of a racing car driver going 80 mph around a hair pin bend. His and the cars acceleration want to keep going in a straight line - straight into the wall - but they don't because an (unbalanced) force - the driver steering the car to the left places a force of a different direction onto the car.
This is Newton's second law - Law of force and Acceleration.
So if the clubhead swings in a circular orbit due to Centrifugal REACTION, then an unbalanced force (PP#3) moving to or staying on the underneath of the shaft will move the clubhead OUT away from the ball EXPOSING the hosel. You are then no longer swinging in a circle and have there for moved the club in an oval shape. HENCE you cannot swing in a cirlcle and a straight line at the same time - A TANGENT is a straight line created by a circle.

If you are saying that lagging the hosel exposes the hosel because it destroys the cirlcular orbit of the clubhead I'm right with you Brian . If you say that lagging the hosel opens the face which causes a shank I can't buy it.



Those who say it's related to swing path I would say imagine a hoola hoop. Fix the point to where the hoop touches the ground and then rotate it which ever way you want. Yes you cross the line of flight but the sweet spot doesn't getany further away or closer to the ball. All swing path will change is direction. Don't believe me see sketch 1L if TGM. If you understand this sketch you can hit any shot you want when you want to!


Twitch

 

[dsmith2296]

Simple experiment: Go the range and address the ball normally, then right before you pull the trigger, rake the ball 2 inches closer to your body.

Now make a backswing whilst maintaining all other alignments as they were when you initially addressed the ball and strike the ball without CONSCIOUSLY altering your swing.

What results?

 

[holeout]

Simple experiment: Go the range and address the ball normally, then right before you pull the trigger, rake the ball 2 inches closer to your body.

Now make a backswing whilst maintaining all other alignments as they were when you initially addressed the ball and strike the ball without CONSCIOUSLY altering your swing.

What results?

It depends. Are you TRYING to shank it?

All I know is that I've had a few situations before where I've made a backswing and right near the end of it the ball starts to move. Since by that point it's a bit too late for me to stop my swing (which would incur a penalty, by the way), I have to adjust on the downswing. I can never remember when that has resulted in a toe shot when the ball moves away from me or a heel shot or shank when it has moved closer to me.

 

[twitch127]

Simple experiment: Go the range and address the ball normally, then right before you pull the trigger, rake the ball 2 inches closer to your body.

Now make a backswing whilst maintaining all other alignments as they were when you initially addressed the ball and strike the ball without CONSCIOUSLY altering your swing.

This is the same as

So if the clubhead swings in a circular orbit due to Centrifugal REACTION, then an unbalanced force (PP#3) moving to or staying on the underneath of the shaft will move the clubhead OUT away from the ball EXPOSING the hosel. You are then no longer swinging in a circle and have there for moved the club in an oval shape. HENCE you cannot swing in a cirlcle and a straight line at the same time - A TANGENT is a straight line created by a circle.

They are the same concept!

You have moved the ball position and I moved the clubhead.

 

[dsmith2296]

I don't think we disagree. My simple point is that a person shanks because the clubhead is closer to the ball at impact than it was at address. The question is what body part is responsible for making the clubhead get too close to the ball.- weight on toes, lunge, loss of tilt, Newton?

And why does the mind sometimes fail to sense the sweetspot is beyond the ball--- that's the mental part of why some of us go through these bouts.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Simple experiment: Go the range and address the ball normally, then right before you pull the trigger, rake the ball 2 inches closer to your body.

Now make a backswing whilst maintaining all other alignments as they were when you initially addressed the ball and strike the ball without CONSCIOUSLY altering your swing.

What results?

Um...i hit a nice penetrating lower shot. Standing closer to the ball lets you hit the ball a bit lower and further away a little higher. The reason why i didn't shank it is because i am directing the sweetspot on the ball and not the hosel.