Should Everyone Zero Out their Path & Clubface on TrackMan, and hit up on Drivers?

[Brian Manzella]

Should Everyone Zero Out their Path & Clubface on TrackMan, and hit up on Drivers?

Should Everyone Zero Out their Path & Clubface on TrackMan, and hit up on Drivers?

Well...

If you play better fading the ball or drawing the ball then hitting it dead straight, I'd say, go ahead.

I played my best golf fading every shot.

But...

I didn't have TrackMan, and the D-Plane was a distant dream of a REAL answer to why some golfers are better than others.

ZERO IT OUT!!

I know there was another thread about this topic, but frankly it bored me to death.

We have someone who works for TrackMan who wonders if "windows" are easier on the golfer if the golfer tilts the spin axis (works the ball) the same way every time.

I say HELL NO!!

There is very little doubt in my mind that getting golfers who struggle with improvement to zero out their swing is the way to go in 90% of all cases.

That's basically what the MANZELLA MARIX is all about—working toward zero.

Trust me, if you went back in a time machine with a TrackMan and measured Hogan, Nelson, Palmer with a Driver, Nicklaus, and Johnny Miller, you see so many zeros you think you were hanging with Bill Gates.

As far as hitting up on a driver goes...

Listen, if your driver is basically square to the arc, and you hit up 5 or 6°, your face will be square to that path.

30 extra yards AND straighter.

 

[holeout]

Once one has been zero'd out, are the main concerns alignment and ball position (assuming the swing is consistent)?

Also, are you playing a fade at all anymore? Who is in the other 10% of people who don't need to be zero'd out?

P.S. I like the new avatar.

 

[mb6606]

How do you zero it out without a Trackman??

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

How do you zero it out without a Trackman??

A good understanding of the d-plane and ball flight laws and a wholllllllllllle lot of beating balls at the range. That's how i did (think so) it. I was on the trackman at GTE for a few swings and my good ones were very close to neutral and the ball flight was pretty darn straight. But didn't take long for my crap swing to get in there and make it look silly though haha

 

[jaridyard]

Should Everyone Zero Out their Path & Clubface on TrackMan, and hit up on Drivers?

Well...

If you play better fading the ball or drawing the ball then hitting it dead straight, I'd say, go ahead.

I played my best golf fading every shot.

But...

I didn't have TrackMan, and the D-Plane was a distant dream of a REAL answer to why some golfers are better than others.

ZERO IT OUT!!

I know there was another thread about this topic, but frankly it bored me to death.

We have someone who works for TrackMan who wonders if "windows" are easier on the golfer if the golfer tilts the spin axis (works the ball) the same way every time.

I say HELL NO!!

There is very little doubt in my mind that getting golfers who struggle with improvement to zero out their swing is the way to go in 90% of all cases.

That's basically what the MANZELLA MARIX is all about—working toward zero.

Trust me, if you went back in a time machine with a TrackMan and measured Hogan, Nelson, Palmer with a Driver, Nicklaus, and Johnny Miller, you see so many zeros you think you were hanging with Bill Gates.

As far as hitting up on a driver goes...

Listen, if your driver is basically square to the arc, and you hit up 5 or 6°, your face will be square to that path.

30 extra yards AND straighter.

I had wondered why you didn't respond, apologies that the very topic you now decided to start a new thread on 'bored you to death'

So a new thread begins and you state that zero is the way to go without any argument besides 'if we had a time machine'!? What is that??

There are clear difficulties with attempting to zero out, I see them every day. My suggestion was only a slight but definite tilt, you make it sound like I was suggesting everyone slings it round and yes pushing 90% of players towards zero would benefit their ball flight. I personally would never go to zero though.

As for hitting up 6º I know you understand D-Plane, 30 yards extra and straight is great when you get it right but I know you understand why the margin for error is suddenly reduced dramatically with those kind of numbers. The tour has been there done that, super long tees were suddenly in vogue and spin rates down under 2000rpm, it didn't last long.

These fads often don't.

 

[Kevin Shields]

How do you zero it out without a Trackman??

A dream question for a Trackman owner.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Who are you exactly, and who is your horse in this race?

I had wondered why you didn't respond, apologies that the very topic you now decided to start a new thread on 'bored you to death'

Try to have a forum with 20 active threads, run a Golf Academy, a Teacher Training Program, working to get a new version of your website up, get 20 calls a day from instructors and golfers, put in your time at your facility, and call me in the morning.

Little secret: Not every thread makes me want to post on it.

So a new thread begins and you state that zero is the way to go without any argument besides 'if we had a time machine'!? What is that??

My argument is my teaching.

I have always worked toward "the middle" and my idea of the ball-flight laws were WAY CLOSER then anyone else's. I often got ridiculed for telling golfers to swing so far to the left to hit it straight.

Turns out I was DEAD ON CORRECT, as you know, put a camera or teacher's eyes on the hand line at address and zero out the path and, well, it is pretty far left.

There are clear difficulties with attempting to zero out, I see them every day.

No problem at all to do if that's what I determine is best.

Ever seen me teach?

My suggestion was only a slight but definite tilt, you make it sound like I was suggesting everyone slings it round and yes pushing 90% of players towards zero would benefit their ball flight. I personally would never go to zero though.

You see, "Jaridyard" I said NOTHING of the kind. That's a tactic that lots of folks have used on threads but that buck STOPS TODAY!!

Here is EXACTLY what I said:

We have someone who works for TrackMan who wonders if "windows" are easier on the golfer if the golfer tilts the spin axis (works the ball) the same way every time.

That's what you call "...suggesting everyone slings it round."

Really?

As sure as my name is Brian, you have a horse in this race.

You are an advocate of a methodology that doesn't zero out that good.

If you are not, something is even more wrong with your "deal" on here lately.

Is jaridyard your real name?

As for hitting up 6º I know you understand D-Plane, 30 yards extra and straight is great when you get it right but I know you understand why the margin for error is suddenly reduced dramatically with those kind of numbers. The tour has been there done that, super long tees were suddenly in vogue and spin rates down under 2000rpm, it didn't last long.

I don't know if I have ever worked with a tour player that needed 30 extra yards.

Sounds like whatever you teach just doesn't adjust real well.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I had wondered why you didn't respond, apologies that the very topic you now decided to start a new thread on 'bored you to death'

So a new thread begins and you state that zero is the way to go without any argument besides 'if we had a time machine'!? What is that??

There are clear difficulties with attempting to zero out, I see them every day. My suggestion was only a slight but definite tilt, you make it sound like I was suggesting everyone slings it round and yes pushing 90% of players towards zero would benefit their ball flight. I personally would never go to zero though.

As for hitting up 6º I know you understand D-Plane, 30 yards extra and straight is great when you get it right but I know you understand why the margin for error is suddenly reduced dramatically with those kind of numbers. The tour has been there done that, super long tees were suddenly in vogue and spin rates down under 2000rpm, it didn't last long.

These fads often don't.

I would RESPECTFULLY disagree by simply saying that the Tour and people around them were going about it wrong. The method of being taught how to hit up was wrong and there was alot of talk about catching it high on the face....thats a fad. Im sorry man, this is the real deal. Also how can you say it didnt last long when guys are still doing it?

I would definately say if they knew how to do it and where to aim they all would do it cuz its not hard.

What are the "clear" difficulties with zeroing out that you mentioned?

 

[golfspike]

Brian or Kevin, Looks like another invasion , I often wonder just who are these 2 or 3 methods and pattern teachers you mention, the flat swing methods ? which are they, I am not up to speed on this matter

 

[jaridyard]

I have always worked toward "the middle" and my idea of the ball-flight laws were WAY CLOSER then anyone else's. I often got ridiculed for telling golfers to swing so far to the left to hit it straight.

Kudos for that.

No problem at all to do if that's what I determine is best.

I hear you tried it at the GTE, then decided it wasn't the best thing for the player.

You see, "Jaridyard" I said NOTHING of the kind. That's a tactic that lots of folks have used on threads but that buck STOPS TODAY!!

Here is EXACTLY what I said:

We have someone who works for TrackMan who wonders if "windows" are easier on the golfer if the golfer tilts the spin axis (works the ball) the same way every time.

Ok, perhaps a little hasty in my assumption. I think it fair to say though that many of the great players were working it one way or the other, turns out for the very same reason I suggest.

As sure as my name is Brian, you have a horse in this race.

This has sweet fa to do with horses or races. The original thread discussed both fade and draw so I guess that might be wrong. This is about ease of use and reliability. Preferred patterns are completely irrelevant.

You are an advocate of a methodology that doesn't zero out that good.

If you are not, something is even more wrong with your "deal" on here lately.

That may be but as I said above that has nothing to do with the original thread or this one. I wanted opinions, I wanted yours AND others backed up with coherent reasoning. I have yet to get that.

Is jaridyard your real name?

Of course it is, I have zero reason to hide it.

Any thoughts on the negative effect of hitting up on D-Plane?

Let's discuss, be civil and maybe even educate or is that not on the agenda?

 

[Michael Finney]

would this be classified as hitting?

good job not dying during that swing...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVorNBN7754&feature=channel[/media]

 

[Michael Finney]

Jarid,

I'm certainly no authority on Trackman numbers, working the ball, and what Tour players are attempting to do. Brian and Kevin would be much more in tune with those questions. But personally, I think there would be negligible differences between "straight zeros" - within a 2 degree tolerance and "on one side or another of zero" within a 2 degree tolerance (as long as these latter numbers synched up - like more down was combined with more left, etc.)

The reality of the situation is that more often than not, good players and average players will probably be more comfortable seeing the ball fall a certain way and they will by default move toward that side of zero.

I feel confident that Brian and Kevin would love "all zeros" but would be thrilled with consistent numbers on either side which produced minimal bend.

This may be obvious to everyone, but I thought I would throw it out there so we were somewhat on the same page.

Mike

 

[jaridyard]

Jarid,

I'm certainly no authority on Trackman numbers, working the ball, and what Tour players are attempting to do. Brian and Kevin would be much more in tune with those questions. But personally, I think there would be negligible differences between "straight zeros" - within a 2 degree tolerance and "on one side or another of zero" within a 2 degree tolerance (as long as these latter numbers synched up - like more down was combined with more left, etc.)

The reality of the situation is that more often than not, good players and average players will probably be more comfortable seeing the ball fall a certain way and they will by default move toward that side of zero.

I feel confident that Brian and Kevin would love "all zeros" but would be thrilled with consistent numbers on either side which produced minimal bend.

This may be obvious to everyone, but I thought I would throw it out there so we were somewhat on the same page.

Mike

Well done finding that video! Guess it must have been pure hitting huh? I'm no TGM enthusiast so who knows. Survival was the goal.

I'm just of the preference to see the ball falling towards target, like you noted above, "falling a certain way".

 

[holeout]

Well done finding that video! Guess it must have been pure hitting huh? I'm no TGM enthusiast so who knows. Survival was the goal.

I'm just of the preference to see the ball falling towards target, like you noted above, "falling a certain way".

To me it seems that "minimal bend" is the key. I prefer to see a fade, but my best shots are always strong, low spin, mid-high launch, 2 to 5-yard fades (with driver). I am sure the numbers on Trackman would probably be very close to zero, at least within 2 degrees for path and face, and the upward hit is sure to be there to reduce the spin.

Just a thought.

 

[jaridyard]

To me it seems that "minimal bend" is the key. I prefer to see a fade, but my best shots are always strong, low spin, mid-high launch, 2 to 5-yard fades (with driver). I am sure the numbers on Trackman would probably be very close to zero, at least within 2 degrees for path and face, and the upward hit is sure to be there to reduce the spin.

Just a thought.

Thank you for the input, I imagine your numbers are very good, sounds like you play with a margin which is nice.

An upward hit has never reduced spin, it allows you to use a less lofted club which in turn reduces the spin. Do you have a bad shot?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Jarid, why dont you start the discussion with what you feel are the negative effects of hitting up?

 

[jaridyard]

Jarid, why dont you start the discussion with what you feel are the negative effects of hitting up?

Sure.

In short we hit up as it allows us to use a less lofted driver equalling less spin.

I feel the negative here is the reduction in Spin Loft (obviously a positive for maximum distance), this reduction means a more severe tilt of the spin axis when it doesn't quite go right hence a much smaller margin for error.

The technique used to hit up is largely irrelevant to this point. I have no problem at all seeing someone with a level Attack Angle or even a couple up as long as a forgiving spin loft is maintained.

 

[Kevin Shields]

At what point in skill level do you feel this is a problem? And i disagree that technique is irrelevant.

 

[jaridyard]

I meant technique cannot override the reduction in spin loft/height of the D-Plane

In one way or another all levels

 

[Kevin Shields]

I totally get the point about the spin loft. But like anything its up to the individual. Its kinda like saying lets discuss the negative effects of hitting your irons with your hands leading because alot of people who try it hit slices and shanks.

I just think its too easy to do. BUT, that being said, some holes just look like I want to keep it down some, or work it a different way. Then maybe ill level off the attack angle for a ball flight. But i think everyone should strive to have a "3 out, 3 up" driver swing. Or something similar numberwise.