Shoulder turn takeaway or RFP
- Thread starter jhphx
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Michael Finney
New
on the surface, yes - RFP may be a better option for you
birdie_man
New
They're both options. For me, I like more of an underplane takeaway.....I think you can stress the shaft better (Brian talked about this a bit in "Flipper" I think)....use physics more.
Right now, I don't know if I care if I'm 100% "geometry-correct" (tracing the Plane Line all the time)....it's not 100% set in stone.....but I don't think I'm gonna change anytime soon.
For me, it just seems more natural and fits better.
Try both tho.
Right now, I don't know if I care if I'm 100% "geometry-correct" (tracing the Plane Line all the time)....it's not 100% set in stone.....but I don't think I'm gonna change anytime soon.
For me, it just seems more natural and fits better.
Try both tho.
vandal
New
I've switched from a shoudler-turn takeaway to a RFP/Manzella takeaway and my game has improved tremendously. With the shoulder-turn, I get way too laid off and in a position that my body can't recover from. The only thing left for me after that is a faulty shoulder turn and an OTT move that ruins my swing.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
The shoulder turn takeaway is a VALID OPTION. The problem with it is the "turn" gets over done. People get too much "around" and not enough "up" in their swing. This is when you get to the laid off position.
I use a shoulder turn takeaway and still trace a pretty darn straight plane line. Thing is that i practiced it with my plane lasers until i could do it automatically.
The key is if you use the shoulder turn takeaway you need to go "up" VERY QUICKLY after you go in, otherwise you'll be flat in the backswing.
I use a shoulder turn takeaway and still trace a pretty darn straight plane line. Thing is that i practiced it with my plane lasers until i could do it automatically.
The key is if you use the shoulder turn takeaway you need to go "up" VERY QUICKLY after you go in, otherwise you'll be flat in the backswing.
Garth
New
This is exactly what's been wrong with golf instruction forever. The reason handicaps have not changed in well over 30 years.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being "laid off" at the top. Look at Tiger's wedge shots these days. He's laid off, makes a body turn back into the ball, leaves his arms passive, and all is good. His full swings are another story.
Picking the club "up" in the backswing means you have to drop it back down on the downswing. Throw whatever TGM terms you want, but that introduces timing into the equation, and that means inconsistency.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Garth, i don't understand your post.
First let's address the "laid off" comment and we will use Tiger's wedge shots as an example. Being on plane means that either the sweetspot of the club or the butt end of the club is pointing at the plane line. No one's perfect so sometimes it's inside a little and sometimes it's outside a little. But it should be pointing pretty darn close to that line. So assuming you understand this than you will realize that unless you reach the top/end of your backswing plane the club will APPEAR like it's "left" of the target however the butt end of that club will still point at the plane line. But once you reach the end of your swing and you are on plane the club will point parallel to your target line. And as you say, "full swings" are a different story because you've CONTINUED UP the plane to a very "normal" looking position.
Next, where did i say anything about picking anything up? All i said is that the club has to come up garth. The right elbow bends and brings the club "up" to some point in your swing, so that means the club is going to have to come back down. If you don't get enough "up" you will be off plane which is what i described above. Meaing if you turn your body too much and don't lift your arms enough you will have that butt end of the club pointing well to the outside of that plane line. Now sure, that's something you could very well do as long as you compensate some way on the downswing to get back on plane. But that's not the greatest idea. That's where inconsistency comes from.
Whether you use the eblow plane and appear to be more flat in the backswing vs the turning shoulder plane which appears to be more steep, both are still on plane. They are just using different plane angles. All golf swings rely on some sort of timing, rhythm, and tempo.
Also i didn't use any TGM terms. Unless you consider "plane" and "trace" to be specific TGM terms lol.
First let's address the "laid off" comment and we will use Tiger's wedge shots as an example. Being on plane means that either the sweetspot of the club or the butt end of the club is pointing at the plane line. No one's perfect so sometimes it's inside a little and sometimes it's outside a little. But it should be pointing pretty darn close to that line. So assuming you understand this than you will realize that unless you reach the top/end of your backswing plane the club will APPEAR like it's "left" of the target however the butt end of that club will still point at the plane line. But once you reach the end of your swing and you are on plane the club will point parallel to your target line. And as you say, "full swings" are a different story because you've CONTINUED UP the plane to a very "normal" looking position.
Next, where did i say anything about picking anything up? All i said is that the club has to come up garth. The right elbow bends and brings the club "up" to some point in your swing, so that means the club is going to have to come back down. If you don't get enough "up" you will be off plane which is what i described above. Meaing if you turn your body too much and don't lift your arms enough you will have that butt end of the club pointing well to the outside of that plane line. Now sure, that's something you could very well do as long as you compensate some way on the downswing to get back on plane. But that's not the greatest idea. That's where inconsistency comes from.
Whether you use the eblow plane and appear to be more flat in the backswing vs the turning shoulder plane which appears to be more steep, both are still on plane. They are just using different plane angles. All golf swings rely on some sort of timing, rhythm, and tempo.
Also i didn't use any TGM terms. Unless you consider "plane" and "trace" to be specific TGM terms lol.
Garth
New
Thanks for no TGM terms
This part is what i have a problem with...
" Meaing if you turn your body too much and don't lift your arms enough you will have that butt end of the club pointing well to the outside of that plane line. Now sure, that's something you could very well do as long as you compensate some way on the downswing to get back on plane."
Why do you have to compensate? If the arms followed a natual path to get where they are, then why do they need to do anything different on the way back?
jeffy
Banned
Garth-
Your precious Chuck has devoted entire threads complete with comparison pictures duscussing the problem of getting too flat in the backswing. Check this one out:
http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/fo...ID=1294&KW=hardy+takeaway+too+flat&PN=0&TPN=1
BTW, the reasons handicaps as a whole haven't changed, IMO, is because players of today don't practice any more than they did 30 years ago. If you think instruction hasn't improved, you don't spend much time watching competitive golf: the quality of the swings today are light years ahead of 30 years ago.
Your pal,
Jeff
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by Garth
Thanks for no TGM terms
This part is what i have a problem with...
" Meaing if you turn your body too much and don't lift your arms enough you will have that butt end of the club pointing well to the outside of that plane line. Now sure, that's something you could very well do as long as you compensate some way on the downswing to get back on plane."
Why do you have to compensate? If the arms followed a natual path to get where they are, then why do they need to do anything different on the way back?
You made a nice body motion turn going back but what that tends to do is over-rotate your left arm and cause the butt end of the shaft to point way outside the plane line. From release point, to impact, follow through, and finish swivel all great ball strikers will "trace a straight plane line." They may do something funky before/after that but they all do it where it counts.
So if you naturally over-rotate your left arm and some how manage to re-rotate it and get it on plane and are an excellent ballstriker with no leakage cuz you do this horrendous move naturally, well i wouldn't mess with it. But if you are very poor ballstriker who needs to learn how to find the plane you will need to change it.
jeffy
Banned
The right elbow bending and lifting the club is a learned action; there is nothing natural about it. Try this experiment: grip a club left handed, take your address position and turn your shoulders to the left. Where do your hands wind up? Unless you lift with the left arm, they will be very flat compared to your right-handed swing, probably down around the hip.
Once you do learn to bend the right arm properly in the backswing, and get the club on plane, returning the club to the ball without manipulation or compensation is relatively easy. That is why it is so important to get "on plane".
Garth
New
I only see the over-rotation happening as a result of too flat a shoulder turn. If you turn your shoulders at 90 degrees to your spine then i don't see a problem. I don't want to get too off-track though, After re-reading the OP, and i guess with him saying this...
"If you have too much around and get the club under plane and then closed at the top"
then maybe you're advice is good for him.
"If you have too much around and get the club under plane and then closed at the top"
then maybe you're advice is good for him.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
This is all covered in "Pivot Wars. RFT vs. STT" Manzella video short #4
Mike Finney:
In noting the shoulder turn takeaway may be a better option, I find some confusion with (horizontal ?)hinging and takeaways. Brian notes in video to swivel or get the palm on plane(swinging).. For the rfp,is there more of a direct route to the shoulder area.. a feeling like one is simply going up? I have been going around so long,, one looses the sense of getting the club up. And, the hingeing or rotation seems better served with a more around or should turn move...If you move your left arm and club opposite your right toe and lift up with a bit of forearm rotation, the body is pulled into a pretty traditional spot.. Is that the concept..
thanks,, Jhphx
In noting the shoulder turn takeaway may be a better option, I find some confusion with (horizontal ?)hinging and takeaways. Brian notes in video to swivel or get the palm on plane(swinging).. For the rfp,is there more of a direct route to the shoulder area.. a feeling like one is simply going up? I have been going around so long,, one looses the sense of getting the club up. And, the hingeing or rotation seems better served with a more around or should turn move...If you move your left arm and club opposite your right toe and lift up with a bit of forearm rotation, the body is pulled into a pretty traditional spot.. Is that the concept..
thanks,, Jhphx
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Your left arm is inert...doesn't do anything but rotate to the plane. The BENDING of the right elbow is what raises and lowers the left arm.
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