Shut face and too much lean

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kc8kir

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Well, I have come to the point of understanding what I do in my swing, but not how to actually fix it. I take the club back severely closed and inside (the result of practice too much twist away type waggles) and return the club to the ball with far too much forward lean (the result of overpracticing force across the shaft divots). The result is an in-out path and closed face giving a massive hook. I barely get a 3 wood off the ground, and a driver is nothing but snap hooks (the face is so delofted, the ball has no chance).

But how to fix it? I try opening the clubface on the backswing... and it feels so downright alien I can't even hit the ball. I end up closing it early on the downswing just to regain that "heavy shaft" feeling of the closed face to pound into the ball. Of course then I save it by overleaning the shaft (which I also do because playing an X-stiff, something I went to in order to fix the hook, I apply more and more force across the shaft to try and get it to unload and take a divot). Many times, the shaft simply doesn't unload, and I am left with a wipe, a push, topped shot, or burning hook. Stiffer shafts should have helped with the hook, but instead have only made my underlying issues worse. My pivot is now out of control trying the muscle the shafts, so much so that I don't even finish fully anymore. Most swing are these cut-off looking, desperate anti-hook swings that are just completely un-golf like. I'm so very confused right now with a golf club in my hands.

So here is what I'm thinking of doing:

1) Going back to S-300 shafts or possibly R-300. If I can't load the shaft and have it unload through impact, the club is useless and I might as well just pack 2x4s to play golf.

2) Practice a toe up backswing drill to cure the closed takeaway (we aren't talking a few degrees here to fix, we are talking 30 degrees or more closed on the backswing)

3) Practicing delaying the hands from turning down until later in the swing (downswing drill, pivot driven, no hand action)

4) Using the "wooosh" drill to feel the shaft unload and stop the excessive foward leaning "pull through" impact

Oh and btw, for those who read my post about a week back regarding some success with the "up the wall feel"... well... that lasted about a day. Then with my own clubs I couldn't repeat it. Very aggravating, and a recurring theme in my golf swing development.

Thoughts?
 
2mongoose

2mongoose

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You didn't mention anything about your grip, which I suspect at this point has become something other than orthodox.

You talked about trying to get the face more open in the backswing, but if you're still slingin' the clubhead out to right field you're in trouble. You'll struggle to "save it" at impact.

I'd try and swing more left through impact first and then mess w/ the face second depending on what your ball flight looks like.

Get your right arm higher than your left in the backswing. Then follow Brian's "Yellow Brick road" through impact - with the clubhead pointing at the plane line through the follow through as it travels up, in and away from the wall NOT up the wall.
 
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kc8kir

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Actually, the grip is the only thing consistent in my swing. I set it up the same way ever time, and it's very orthodox (pretty much SD grip). I can't grip it much weaker than that because my hand just doesn't have the meaty heel-pad to sit the club under in perfectly "manzella neutral" position.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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What does the clublook like at the top? I take it back very shut but that the top its only slightly shut.

I would work on the path first before trying to eliminate shaft lean.
 
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kc8kir

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Club is just slightly shut at the top.

The path is certainly too far to the right, but I'm having a really hard time fixing that and still hitting the ball.

Honestly, right now, I feel like swinging a golf club is just incredibly difficult. I spent half a bucket today trying to hit a SW with a straight path, trying everything I could with my release, hip action, swinging left, feet together swings, blah blah blah... I had a board on the outside of the ball and an orange rod on the inside, giving me a 1 foot wide "path" to swing down. Almost every shot was either thinned or shanked. When I did make contact and a good divot, it was a low hook. With every shot my balance was worse and worse. You know those rides on a spring that are at kid parks? Add a golf club and you have an image of me swinging. I must have looked like an absolute idiot. Totally back to square one. So unbelievably frustrating. :mad:

Honestly, I'm beginning to think that when a golf club is in my hand, my IQ drops by a considerable amount. I seriously started to question if golf clubs are properly designed for humans to hit. Because things just don't look right anymore... like I can't even believe the golf club can be used in my hands to hit the ball straight.:confused:

I hate myself for loving this game so d#$% much...

Ok... end of rant. Back to beating balls into the Texas dirt.:rolleyes:

Like BM said, "when you start having trouble with your golf swing, you gotta laugh, or you're gonna cry."
 
F

footwedge

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Quote from Kc8kir: Figured out how I got into hooking the ball!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I would share this personal revelation:

Had a terrible range session yesterday. Really terrible. Something just didn't feel right. I couldn't muster any power in my golf swing and contact was absolutely poor.

"What happened?" I asked myself. This is not the swing I played with on Friday breaking 80. I couldn't break 100 with the way I was hitting.

My shots were alternating thin, fat, hook, block, thin, fat, hook, block. I tried choking down on a seven iron and working on keeping my balance with some short swings. Couldn't do it. I was falling all over the place.

Just about ready to call it quits for the day, I decided to take a "back to basics approach" to my setup. First thing was ball position. I had two options really:

1) The Jack Nicklaus approach, ball off left heel.

2) The variable ball position approach.

For the record, when I started playing, I used method 1. It just made so much sense, I never wanted to fool with it. However, about a year ago, when I first took a lesson, the instructor had me put the ball in the middle of the stance for wedge through 7 iron, and move it just a bit forward after that.

This reaked havoc on my entire swing. For a while I did ok, but as I tried to apply any power to the swing, I couldn't make solid contact. Everything was a hook.

I've been tooling around with ball position ever since, mostly leaning towards a more centered placement. Why? Now that I think of it, the worst reason of all: asthetics. Yep, I thought it looked better having it more centered. Sheeeeezzz....

Yesterday confirmed that fooling with what worked in the first place was a bad idea. As a result of trying to play the ball farther back, I've compensated in my swing by using my hands to square the clubface very quickly on the downswing, thereby ruining my sequence to impact. The result has been less power (we're talking 10 mph or more in swing speed), and a nightmare experience of brilliant one day, then horrible ball the next ball striking.

It occured to me that my hooks are the result of positioning the ball over time so far back (for my swing) that the path is now unavoidably in-out, at an angle where I have to rotate my hands excessively to square the face. My attack angle also had become excessively downward (to compensate for the fact that normally, my swing would not even be ready to hit the ground at that point). This resulted in heavy divot patterns and sore hands.

So yesterday I went back to the Jack Nicklaus position. It occured to me that for my build (weak upper body, strong lower body, 5' 11"... hehe... sound familiar?), reaching contact at this "near maximum extension" point is more efficient. The club has more time to square on its own, retain more lag, and produce more speed. It also enables me to make a straight takeaway move, rather than immediately sucking the club inside (something I have been fighting to fix, without success, from a farther back ball position).

Maybe there is a way to get used to the center ball position, and for some it probably has its merit. But it's not the way for me. My body is completely stuck trying to hit the ball in that position. Granted, right now the "ball off left heel" looks rediculous to me, especially with woods and short irons. But the ball flight doesn't lie. I'm back to a slight draw with every club but the driver (driver is just kinda all over the place atm, mostly big fades). The best news is that I was definitely getting WAY more clubhead speed with all clubs. I could release fully through the ball and not feel off balance. Maybe now I can perform a LCHT successfully.

Once again... Jack Nicklaus had it right, and Phil Mickelson's infamous quote applies.

"...I'm such an idiot"

Oh btw, there are some new videos up on Youtube with Jack Nicklaus' swing from early in his career. Really neat to watch if you get the chance.




Have you tried to do this, in the above post? Maybe worth a try again.
 
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kc8kir

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I keep a log of most of the things I work on in my swing. Trying to use information just like that to get back to what works. Problem is... it doesn't.

Ball off the left heel and the Jack Nicklaus thoughts are not working.

Thanks though... it's one reason I post on here is maybe one of these days one of these "revelation" moments will stick.
 
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footwedge

New member
kc8kir said:
I keep a log of most of the things I work on in my swing. Trying to use information just like that to get back to what works. Problem is... it doesn't.

Ball off the left heel and the Jack Nicklaus thoughts are not working.

Thanks though... it's one reason I post on here is maybe one of these days one of these "revelation" moments will stick.
Click to expand...

Have you tried doing twist away at the top and holding it through impact? Like a feeling of a hold off fade.
 
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kc8kir

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Yes. The result appears to be a hooded clubface at impact and a lot of shaft lean. Doesn't really stop me from swinging in-out.
 
curtisj76

curtisj76

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kc8kir said:
I hate myself for loving this game so d#$% much...

Like BM said, "when you start having trouble with your golf swing, you gotta laugh, or you're gonna cry."
Click to expand...

I hear ya man, sounds like we are both in a nasty funk. Put an iron in my hands and I have no idea what I'm doing. Just keep bang'n and make sure you have plenty of beer in the fridge and Kleenex for the nights you just feel like a good cry.
 
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kc8kir

New
I'll try tomorrow. Heaven knows, I'll be lured back to that great green pasture of self-torment to do battle with the gods of earth, steel and graphite once more.
 
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footwedge

New member
kc8kir said:
I'll try tomorrow. Heaven knows, I'll be lured back to that great green pasture of self-torment to do battle with the gods of earth, steel and graphite once more.
Click to expand...

Hey, it might be worth the agony:D somebody could see something to help you solve this.
 
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kc8kir

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Upon reinspection, my grip needs serious work. So I have Brian's article here on the grip. My only question is... how do you grip it "under the heel pad" if your left hand really has little to no "heel pad" under which to grip it? All seriousness here... my left hand is slipping around like crazy trying to hold the golf club. I can't make a left hand only or right hand only swing (the club flails around like crazy). My grip may look good from a casual perspective, but it's actually defunct. I'll post some pictures in a bit.
 
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kc8kir

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Not really, my hands just about fit the picture of Nicklaus' hands in "Golf My Way". My fingers are somewhat thin however.
 
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softconsult

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That is not the correct way to go through the process of gripping the club.

I am going to attempt to put into words what Brian spent around 30 minutes on during my lesson (and my grip wasn't all that bad to start with).

First hold the shaft with your right hand at 45 degrees upward from vertical. Holding it horizontal will really screw things up.

Next straighten the fingers on your left hand and squeeze your thumb inward
forming a V between the last your thumb and the base of your index finger.

Next lay the club slightly diagonally across the fingers of your left hand.

Now with your thumb still squeezed straighten your index finger. Brian's word picture was shoot a water pistol.

Then move the heel of your left hand over the top of the grip. Emphasis on moving the heel first, which creates a concave left wrist.

Tough to illustrate in words. Think I remember a grip section in one of Brian's video's, but don't remember which one.
 
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