Snead's head & backstroke tilt & the "tripod"
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Brian Manzella
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BigBadDonkey
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Good stuff Brian. What about Woods and Nicklaus?
BigBadDonkey
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Greg Norman?
bcoak
New
So what does this mean? Which one do you like? What does each promote. Good pics, but some analysis would be great. Personally, I like Toms' setup because he starts from behind the ball (something Redgoat has commented on here) which allows him to just turn back with little lateral movement.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I would like to state my case in reverse.
I FIRMLY believe that the Imperatives should dictate the components.
And, in the real world of teaching, choosing a 'pivot center'—the head or the base of the neck—is a component of sorts, a choice that the teacher needs to make in an area that has to be done, but can be done differently.
If I can get a student to COMPRESS the ball with lag pressure, 'draw' a straight Plane Line, & control the clubface with Hinge Action—and do it with a perfectly still head—then I do it.
But, from an athletic function standpoint, and from a pure performance standpoint, the base of the neck PIVOT CENTER works more of the time and is employed more of the time by world-class players over the years, in my opinion.
Also in my opinion, the IDEA that the head PERFECTLY between the feet and VERY STILL during the swing, is an IDEA that would hurt more people than it would help.
But, like Big Don Villavaso says "As sure as Gawd made little green apples," you could teach ALL of your students to have a head that is PERFECTLY between the feet and DEAD STILL during the swing, and be a very, very successful teacher.
I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time.
I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.
Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.
When I started teaching David Toms, he had a dead still head, almost no hip turn, and sometimes never got the club on the Turned Shoulder Plane. So I "fixed" him.
Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.
Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?
I FIRMLY believe that the Imperatives should dictate the components.
And, in the real world of teaching, choosing a 'pivot center'—the head or the base of the neck—is a component of sorts, a choice that the teacher needs to make in an area that has to be done, but can be done differently.
If I can get a student to COMPRESS the ball with lag pressure, 'draw' a straight Plane Line, & control the clubface with Hinge Action—and do it with a perfectly still head—then I do it.
But, from an athletic function standpoint, and from a pure performance standpoint, the base of the neck PIVOT CENTER works more of the time and is employed more of the time by world-class players over the years, in my opinion.
Also in my opinion, the IDEA that the head PERFECTLY between the feet and VERY STILL during the swing, is an IDEA that would hurt more people than it would help.
But, like Big Don Villavaso says "As sure as Gawd made little green apples," you could teach ALL of your students to have a head that is PERFECTLY between the feet and DEAD STILL during the swing, and be a very, very successful teacher.
I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time.
I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.
Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.
When I started teaching David Toms, he had a dead still head, almost no hip turn, and sometimes never got the club on the Turned Shoulder Plane. So I "fixed" him.
Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.
Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?
quote:Originally posted by brianman
I would like to state my case in reverse.
I FIRMLY believe that the Imperatives should dictate the components.
And, in the real world of teaching, choosing a 'pivot center'—the head or the base of the neck—is a component of sorts, a choice that the teacher needs to make in an area that has to be done, but can be done differently.
If I can get a student to COMPRESS the ball with lag pressure, 'draw' a straight Plane Line, & control the clubface with Hinge Action—and do it with a perfectly still head—then I do it.
But, from an athletic function standpoint, and from a pure performance standpoint, the base of the neck PIVOT CENTER works more of the time and is employed more of the time by world-class players over the years, in my opinion.
Also in my opinion, the IDEA that the head PERFECTLY between the feet and VERY STILL during the swing, is an IDEA that would hurt more people than it would help.
But, like Big Don Villavaso says "As sure as Gawd made little green apples," you could teach ALL of your students to have a head that is PERFECTLY between the feet and DEAD STILL during the swing, and be a very, very successful teacher.
I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time.
I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.
Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.
When I started teaching David Toms, he had a dead still head, almost no hip turn, and sometimes never got the club on the Turned Shoulder Plane. So I "fixed" him.
Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.
Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?
B,
Agreed. The Head as the Pivot Center is not an Imperative, but an Essential. Is it not Knee Action that dictates the Hip Slant and the movement or lack thereof of the head?
Toms seems to have different Knee Action than Snead and Hogan . . . setting up a different hip slant and shoulder turn plane.
More than one way to skin a cat or goat or "octopus from outer-space."
That's what The Golfing Machine is all about . . .
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That's the point!
You got IT run.
You got IT run.
In these pics, I rank the setups as follows, with best no. 1.
1. Snead
2. Toms
3. O'Grady
4. Hogan
This ranking is based on my own idea of what consists of a good golf swing. To me, the setup is the most important phase. It dictates whether or not there will need to be compensations for the backswing and downswing phases. Thanks for posting the pics Brian, excellent work.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
The photos are not taken in sequence, so measuring to the flora and fauna isn't accurate. The relationship of Hogan to the ball is the same in the pictures though. Brian is trying to show how Hogan's head moves in relation to his feet.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
Not in sequence. Two different swings. Camera relation to Hogan the same.
"I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time."
Brian - limited - pull yr tongue out of yr cheek
"Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.
Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?"
exactly - this is what I was touching on in my post a short while ago when i referred to guinea pigs
Brian - limited - pull yr tongue out of yr cheek
"Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.
Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?
"exactly - this is what I was touching on in my post a short while ago when i referred to guinea pigs
Very interesting topic Brian which leads me to a question directly for you on my head position through the swing. I will preface this by saying I am LH but golf Rh and am strongly right eye dominant. It is very clear in my swing seen on video, that my head position is likely impeding my swing from being as good as it can be. I have noticed, that in an effort to see the ball it is almost as if my head/neck is cockedat an angle that is pointing toward the target as opposed to the rest of my spine which has some axis tilt. It prvents me from having as much extension/extensor action going back, and while I am not quite reverse pivoting, I don't think my hip movement/pivot is quite correct as it will take my dominant eye off its direct line of sight of the ball.
Any ideas or suggestions? I can email you some short clips if it will help you picture whatI am saying.
Any ideas or suggestions? I can email you some short clips if it will help you picture whatI am saying.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Mail it to brianmanzella@mac.com
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