Someone translate 2-f

[birdie_man]

"If lag presssure is lost the hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the sweetspot) toward impact - that mysterious 'shank'. When in doubt 'turn' the clubface so both the clubshaft and the sweet spot will be on the same plane at the start down. Both planes pass through the lag pressure point"

This was someone's question on another site....

I'm stumped on this one too.

 

[Bigwill]

Confuses me too. It seems to me that the only way the shaft and the sweetspot are on the same plane is if the face is lying flat against the plane, thus leading with the hosel. Definitely could use some help on this one.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

"If lag presssure is lost the hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the sweetspot) toward impact - that mysterious 'shank'. When in doubt 'turn' the clubface so both the clubshaft and the sweet spot will be on the same plane at the start down. Both planes pass through the lag pressure point"

This was someone's question on another site....

I'm stumped on this one too.

What homer means is that you have over-rotated the sweetspot in the backswing. Instead of the 1/4, let's say you went 3/4 turn. So now the clubshaft is still on plane but the sweetspot plane is now "flat or laid off" so to speak. So instead of lagging the sweetspot you are lagging the hosel because you rotated the sweetspot too much in the backswing. Make sense?

So what he's saying is to "turn the sweetspot" (rotate it via the left arm) back so now BOTH the clubshaft AND sweetspot will be lagged into impact. No more shank.

Does this help?

------------------

Side note, this can also happen in the downswing too. You can "reverse roll" a bit in the downswing and end up in the position i'm describing in the backswing. This where homer says "if lag pressure is lost." He's referring to the downswing and i was referring more to the backswing. Same problem, just different point in the swing.

 

[birdie_man]

Oh ok I thought it may have had something to do with that.....not over opening the face.....getting the sweetspot off the plane....like Brian talks about.

Thanks Jim.

 

[Ricky1990]

AH! Thats why I have been hitting the odd shank with my wedges I think! Because on video I looked at my swing and about 1/4 of the way back my left hand kind of takes other starts laying the club off and picks the club up steep!!

Any tips on correcting this? Try to feel like your just useing the shoulders to swing the club more?

 

[dodger]

That was my thread I believe. Brian's shank video addresses this issue as does twistaway. I am working on feeling that the face is closed throughout the swing, which has eliminated the shank completely. However you also must make sure the club remains on plane. As Jim's reply accurately states, the overroll can occur on the downswing, which is my main problem. Feeling steep and closed on the way down, even with the wedges helps take away the shank. Don't forget the horizontal hinge in the finish. If you do not prepare to roll at release, I have found the ball goes very low. With a good release, nice high draws result. Great post, this chapter in the book has really confused me as well.

 

[tongzilla]

What homer means is that you have over-rotated the sweetspot in the backswing. Instead of the 1/4, let's say you went 3/4 turn. So now the clubshaft is still on plane but the sweetspot plane is now "flat or laid off" so to speak. So instead of lagging the sweetspot you are lagging the hosel because you rotated the sweetspot too much in the backswing. Make sense?

So what he's saying is to "turn the sweetspot" (rotate it via the left arm) back so now BOTH the clubshaft AND sweetspot will be lagged into impact. No more shank.

Does this help?

------------------

Side note, this can also happen in the downswing too. You can "reverse roll" a bit in the downswing and end up in the position i'm describing in the backswing. This where homer says "if lag pressure is lost." He's referring to the downswing and i was referring more to the backswing. Same problem, just different point in the swing.

Jim, you have described one aspect of the Sweetspot Plane being Off-plane -- namely over-rotation of the Sweetspot. I am not picking on your explanation, but I'd like to point out that there is also another problem which is under-rotation. People tend to do with Single Wrist Action (there is no independent Turning motion of the Wrists) and Simultaneous Release (Uncocking and Rolling Motion happens together). The Sweetspot is turned less than a quarter turn, and the Clubshaft is being accelerated instead of the Sweetspot. This produces a closed clubface shank. You can still shank the ball to the right with a super-closed clubface as long as the ball contacts the hosel.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I don't see how that's possible. How can one under-rotate the sweetspot and take it to "the top" not "the end" (the end will still make the sweetspot rotate slightly even using single wrist action) and still lag the hosel into the ball IF they don't reverse roll on the downswing?

I just don't see how that can happen.

 

[tongzilla]

I don't see how that's possible. How can one under-rotate the sweetspot and take it to "the top" not "the end" (the end will still make the sweetspot rotate slightly even using single wrist action) and still lag the hosel into the ball IF they don't reverse roll on the downswing?

I just don't see how that can happen.

Because they are accelerating/feeling the clubshaft rather than the sweetspot.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, can you see how someone can shank the ball (i.e. contact ball with the hosel) with a closed clubface? Or do you think that's a theoretic possibility that rarely happens in real life?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Closed clubface shanks from my experience are a rarity. If you could explain to me how they happen on a more "regular" basis i would like to know.

thank you

 

[tongzilla]

Closed clubface shanks from my experience are a rarity. If you could explain to me how they happen on a more "regular" basis i would like to know.

thank you

Golfer shanks ball. He assumes it's because of an open face. And it could be. So he does all he can to keep that face closed, or keep the face looking at the ball for as long as possible in the backswing and downswing. The face ends up being very closed at impact, but the golfer is still shanking. The golfer thinks shanks are caused by an open face, so he tries to close face even more. This doesn't help because the problem is not an open face, it is the fact that he is hitting the ball with the hosel. And the reason this happens is because the golfer is feeling/accelerating the clubshaft rather than the sweetspot -- and not matter how hard he tries to close the clubface, he will still shank it.

It's hard to see impact using video (unless you have Swing Vision!), but if the clubface is very closed relative the the plane half way in the downswing, and still very closed at follow through, and the golfer is shanking...then this is what's happening.

 

[Brian Manzella]

In principle....

I agree with you Leo Tongzilla.

But why doesn't this sometime produce the dreaded DOUBLE HIT.

??

 

[DOCW3]

What homer means is that you have over-rotated the sweetspot in the backswing. Instead of the 1/4, let's say you went 3/4 turn. So now the clubshaft is still on plane but the sweetspot plane is now "flat or laid off" so to speak. So instead of lagging the sweetspot you are lagging the hosel because you rotated the sweetspot too much in the backswing. Make sense?

So what he's saying is to "turn the sweetspot" (rotate it via the left arm) back so now BOTH the clubshaft AND sweetspot will be lagged into impact. No more shank.

Does this help?

------------------

Side note, this can also happen in the downswing too. You can "reverse roll" a bit in the downswing and end up in the position i'm describing in the backswing. This where homer says "if lag pressure is lost." He's referring to the downswing and i was referring more to the backswing. Same problem, just different point in the swing.

If the shaft rotates around the sweet spot, why would the sweet spot be rotated? And, why do you think Homer did not provide any photos to clearly explain this aspect of 2-F. Some have made reference to a statement attributed to him that "once is enough" so, what photo do we use?

Also, in "rotating" does one see more or less of the back of the hand?

DRW

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You see less of the back of the hand.

 

[tongzilla]

If the shaft rotates around the sweet spot, why would the sweet spot be rotated?

The Sweetspot turns during the Backstroke as the Left Wrist also Turns. If this didn't happen, the Clubface would be looking at the ball throughout the Stroke, and you will produce a very un-golf-like motion (3-F-6).

And, why do you think Homer did not provide any photos to clearly explain this aspect of 2-F. Some have made reference to a statement attributed to him that "once is enough" so, what photo do we use?

DRW

The diagram in 2-C-1 #1 shows the Clubshaft Plane and the Sweetspot Plane. Notice how the Sweetspot Plane is on a different angle to the Clubshaft Plane. To better understand the concept of Clubshaft rotation around the Sweetspot, you should imagine the Sweetspot Plane as another shaft going from the Sweetspot to the grip (Right Forefinger), and it is the real Clubshaft that rotates around this imaginery Sweetspot shaft.

 

[The Return of NAT]

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot – the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a “Clubshaft” Plane and a “Sweet Spot,” or “Swing”, Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, “Plane Angle” and “Plane Line” always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. Expect during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and – from, either Plane because the Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot – not vice versa. So Clubhead “Feel” is Clubhead Lag Pressure (6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact – that mysterious “Shank.” When in doubt, “Turn” the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and Sweet Spot will be on the same plane at Start Down. Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point. Study 6-C-2-A.


The sweetspot doesn't turn or rotate is is orbiting in a circle on the inclined plane...the shaft rotates and orbits around the sweetspot plane pending hinge action and/or wrist action..

Let's see...

The earth orbits the sun ...sweetspot orbits around the left shoulder and its hinge assembly with angular motion...

The moon orbits around the earth....the shaft orbits around the sweetspot...BUT...Because of the contructionof the club if the shaft orbits too much one way or the other(clockwise or counterclockwise) you get a nice gift....A Shank!!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

But.....

In english:

If there is an ANT "sitting" on the sweetspot, and that ANT is LOOKING at the ball, and by RELEASE POINT (When you start unclock and unrolling, etc) the HOSEL has blocked the ANT's VIEW of the BALL.

Shank.

 

[rwh]

In english:

If there is an ANT "sitting" on the sweetspot, and that ANT is LOOKING at the ball, and by RELEASE POINT (When you start unclock and unrolling, etc) the HOSEL has blocked the ANT's VIEW of the BALL.

Shank.

Come on, Brian . . . this kind of answer is way too easy to understand. I mean, anyone can understand this. Where's your credibility, man!

I'll bet you could put that Ant almost anywere -- grip, right shoulder, wherever -- and explain the golf swing in terms of what the Ant should be seeing. But then, who would believe you?

 

[Paul_K2]

Cheers Birdieman for posting my question from the iseek forums

Some very good explainations and i think i have a clearer view of what it means, thanks.

Just a thought why don't we play with centre shafted irons, one plane?? Shaft droop??

 

[DOCW3]

What is the best location to view an On Plane stroke at the Top? From that location what would be the positions of PP3 the Sweet Spot and the clubshaft relative to a Plane rotating around a Plane Line running through the ball position? Also, when the clubshaft is parallel to the Plane Line, would a line from PP3 to the Sweet Spot "cover" the shaft?

DRW