Stroke Patterns and Cirriculum - Could it be?

[Michael Jacobs]

Let's face it, basic stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are not standard procedures - but options - we all know this!

But why? Why have the presentations of a basic stroke pattern ended up so far from patterns in earlier editions?

Could it Be? -----
That with the Golfing Machine gaining popularity in the late 70's - early 80's through the teaching and students of Ben Doyle (Bobby Clampett, etc....)

That the procedures that Ben was using (more standardized stuff) double shift, standard knee action, standard hip action, snap release, etc.......

A basic motion of driving tacks and spikes with a pivot - pitching - punch press
Was becoming "THE GOLFING MACHINE SWING"

People around the country dragging and lagging, Maximum trigger delay, working off their pivot.... etc...

I know for a fact that golf magazines, teachers, players, students, discussing how everyone thought that a maximum trigger delay - maximum participation stroke was what the Golfing Machine was all about - and The Golfing Machine which contains much more - should symbolize variety - so there was then obvious encouragement for "other procedures" more if you will - opposite procedures "Bizzaro stuff" To SHow the Golfing Machine's Flexibilty

Could it be that with the popularity of Ben Doyle and with the standardized system he was presenting that the current stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are a way of reminding all that geometry is the same but the actions are optional. Could it be that The standardized procedures in the early editions and the teachings of Ben Doyle were in his mind already etched into golfdom and he wanted to continue his experimentation with all combinations --- ? Was he also being encouraged to do this?

 

[Michael Finney]

i've always been amazed when i hear discussions about homer changing something at the urging of other players or teachers.....this is why brian's idea of a book about homer, the golfing machine's evolution, and homer's influences is so needed....

now whoever writes this book will certainly be accused of one particular bias or another...so i'm not sure what purpose it would serve....that being said, if someone could produce an "unbiased" account of homer's influences (contemporaries - other confidants) it would be very valuable when studying editions 1 through 7.....

birdie man, are you busy?

 

[mandrin]

alpha and omega

Let's face it, basic stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are not standard procedures - but options - we all know this!

But why? Why have the presentations of a basic stroke pattern ended up so far from patterns in earlier editions?

Could it Be? -----
That with the Golfing Machine gaining popularity in the late 70's - early 80's through the teaching and students of Ben Doyle (Bobby Clampett, etc....)

That the procedures that Ben was using (more standardized stuff) double shift, standard knee action, standard hip action, snap release, etc.......

A basic motion of driving tacks and spikes with a pivot - pitching - punch press
Was becoming "THE GOLFING MACHINE SWING"

People around the country dragging and lagging, Maximum trigger delay, working off their pivot.... etc...

I know for a fact that golf magazines, teachers, players, students, discussing how everyone thought that a maximum trigger delay - maximum participation stroke was what the Golfing Machine was all about - and The Golfing Machine which contains much more - should symbolize variety - so there was then obvious encouragement for "other procedures" more if you will - opposite procedures "Bizzaro stuff" To SHow the Golfing Machine's Flexibilty

Could it be that with the popularity of Ben Doyle and with the standardized system he was presenting that the current stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are a way of reminding all that geometry is the same but the actions are optional. Could it be that The standardized procedures in the early editions and the teachings of Ben Doyle were in his mind already etched into golfdom and he wanted to continue his experimentation with all combinations --- ? Was he also being encouraged to do this?

xplosivegolf,

HK was not a scientist by formation but perhaps still a scientist at heart. Could this perhaps explain the format and content of TGM which contains information which is perhaps not very useful and maybe simply there for a desire to be complete?

When scientists develop a concept representing some grand idea of the universe they want it to be all encompassing and strive very hard towards the intrinsic beauty inherent in a coherent system including everything. If someone finds an exception it is felt as a failure.

Could it be that HK after having worked so hard, all by himself, on systemizing all bits, parts and components of the golf swing, like a scientist, wanted to be known very dearly as the one who had it all worked out, anything and everything, being part of one coherent system?

 

[golfbulldog]

xplosivegolf,

HK was not a scientist by formation but perhaps still a scientist at heart. Could this perhaps explain the format and content of TGM which contains information which is perhaps not very useful and maybe simply there for a desire to be complete?

When scientists develop a concept representing some grand idea of the universe they want it to be all encompassing and strive very hard towards the intrinsic beauty inherent in a coherent system including everything. If someone finds an exception it is felt as a failure.

Could it be that HK after having worked so hard, all by himself, on systemizing all bits, parts and components of the golf swing, like a scientist, wanted to be known very dearly as the one who had it all worked out, anything and everything, being part of one coherent system?

Very wise... i have often felt that he desired the academic beauty of a unifying theory...what works for hitting works just as well for swinging etc...

Homer saw beauty in all swings that had alignments... bit like a car designer loving the cheap little runabout as much as the V8 muscle car he also designed.... then along comes a guy who sells cars for a living and advises every one to at least try the V8!!....well it goes fastest doesn't it!! so why bother with your cheap little runabout car...

too much speculation and metaphor!!!

 

[Michael Finney]

TGM which contains information which is perhaps not very useful and maybe simply there for a desire to be complete?

for instance?.....not trying to be argumentative, just would like to know what you consider "not very useful" and "simply there for a desire to be complete".

 

[golfbulldog]

Hi Mike, not mandin but i think that extensor action is much more a hitters requirement rather than swingers...

I think Homers academic enjoyment of hitting caused him to let some hitting style elements run into swinging just so they might be seen in union

eg.. right forearm takaway ( the kind that gives you a small pivot... because hitting doesn't need big pivot)
also
Zero plane shift... goes better if start at impact address and RFT...

wait and see what mandrin says

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Hi Mike, not mandin but i think that extensor action is much more a hitters requirement rather than swingers...

I used to think so too but extensor action is a requirement for swingers as well. Too many "loose swingers" of the golf club tend to let the right arm keep going in the backswing after the shoulders have stopped turning causing a "gap" that will have to be made up in the downswing somewhere.

If you don't you will cause a lot of issues in the downswing that are un-needed. So i'll conclude and say that it isn't AS NECESSARY as so called hitting, but it does serve it's purpose in swinging too.

 

[hiroshiro]

Let's face it, basic stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are not standard procedures - but options - we all know this!

But why? Why have the presentations of a basic stroke pattern ended up so far from patterns in earlier editions?

xplosivegolf (or others with access): Would it be possible for you to post here the basic patterns from earlier editions? I, and I'm sure others, would be very interested in seeing the "evolution" but it is not easy finding older editions of the book.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Will do Hiro --- post earlier editions chapter 12's - dig up the editions tonight

Extensor Action not as important in swinging????????????

Sure is just as important! Extensor action is a non acclerating mass - like a taught leash - at address (in a golf stroke) extensor action should be felt below plane - A taught leash stretched straight down
- That is why Elbow Plane is so widely used!

putting extensor action should be felt on plane - Left Shoulder basic plane angle (which is not in the catalog) is best for putting

 

[hiroshiro]

Will do Hiro --- post earlier editions chapter 12's - dig up the editions tonight

Thank you. THANK YOU! Really looking forward to seeing them.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Edition 1 sample stroke pattern - Full Stroke

He had a sample pattern for full stroke - short stroke - short course - putt

Sample Pattern for Full Stroke - y'all should write this into your book
Overlap
Strong Single
Punch
3 Barrel
square / square
elbow
double shift
standard
standard
dual horizontal
3 point
Full (standard pivot)
Shoulder turn - Flat / Then On Plane
Standard
Standard
Standard
Strandard
Single
Drag Loading
Right arm throw (which to me makes it 4 barrel)
Top
Full Sweep
Angled Line
Random Sweep

 

[hiroshiro]

Great Start!

He had a sample pattern for full stroke - short stroke - short course - putt

Sample Pattern for Full Stroke - y'all should write this into your book
Overlap
Strong Single
Punch
3 Barrel
square / square
elbow
double shift
standard
standard
dual horizontal
3 point
Full (standard pivot)
Shoulder turn - Flat / Then On Plane
Standard
Standard
Standard
Strandard
Single
Drag Loading
Right arm throw (which to me makes it 4 barrel)
Top
Full Sweep
Angled Line
Random Sweep

xplosivegolf:

Thank you again for providing this information. I look forward to further patterns.

I take it that Homer didn't make a distinction between Swinging and Hitting in the first edition. It appears that it is primarily a Swinging stroke but with certain components now more associated with Hitting (e.g., Punch Basic Stroke, Single Left Wrist Action, Right Arm Throw Trigger). Interesting stuff!

 

[tongzilla]

Homer Kelly on the Four Barrel Swing

Let's face it, basic stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are not standard procedures - but options - we all know this!

But why? Why have the presentations of a basic stroke pattern ended up so far from patterns in earlier editions?

Could it Be? -----
That with the Golfing Machine gaining popularity in the late 70's - early 80's through the teaching and students of Ben Doyle (Bobby Clampett, etc....)

That the procedures that Ben was using (more standardized stuff) double shift, standard knee action, standard hip action, snap release, etc.......

A basic motion of driving tacks and spikes with a pivot - pitching - punch press
Was becoming "THE GOLFING MACHINE SWING"

People around the country dragging and lagging, Maximum trigger delay, working off their pivot.... etc...

I know for a fact that golf magazines, teachers, players, students, discussing how everyone thought that a maximum trigger delay - maximum participation stroke was what the Golfing Machine was all about - and The Golfing Machine which contains much more - should symbolize variety - so there was then obvious encouragement for "other procedures" more if you will - opposite procedures "Bizzaro stuff" To SHow the Golfing Machine's Flexibilty

Could it be that with the popularity of Ben Doyle and with the standardized system he was presenting that the current stroke patterns in chapter 12 and the cirriculums are a way of reminding all that geometry is the same but the actions are optional. Could it be that The standardized procedures in the early editions and the teachings of Ben Doyle were in his mind already etched into golfdom and he wanted to continue his experimentation with all combinations --- ? Was he also being encouraged to do this?

Just thought it would be interesting to post a transcript of what Homer Kelly had to say about the Four Barrel Swing. I am just a messenger...so please keep this on topic!


"The idea of using a Four Accumulator Swing is extremely difficult, and I would say totally inadvisable. If can be done...maybe somebody can develop a skill...enough skill to handle it...but I wouldn't teach it to anybody...the Four Accumulator Swing."

"I would teach a Four Accumulator Hitting because you can use the Right Shoulder Turn for Acceleration in Hitting, too. But...Hitting and Swinging do not mix. They simply do not mix."

 

[bts]

It's all in that book.

It's up to the people who dig stuff out of it.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Just thought it would be interesting to post a transcript of what Homer Kelly had to say about the Four Barrel Swing. I am just a messenger...so please keep this on topic!


"The idea of using a Four Accumulator Swing is extremely difficult, and I would say totally inadvisable. If can be done...maybe somebody can develop a skill...enough skill to handle it...but I wouldn't teach it to anybody...the Four Accumulator Swing."

"I would teach a Four Accumulator Hitting because you can use the Right Shoulder Turn for Acceleration in Hitting, too. But...Hitting and Swinging do not mix. They simply do not mix."

Tongzilla, he also said any plane angle shift is hazardous - yet look at pages 126 - 130 -- which would be his opportunity to display pictures of a stroke pattern --- looks like a double shift.

People are missing the point of component #4 and inter- relating it too much with other power package components

 

[tongzilla]

xplosivegolf

Tongzilla, he also said any plane angle shift is hazardous - yet look at pages 126 - 130 -- which would be his opportunity to display pictures of a stroke pattern --- looks like a double shift.

People are missing the point of component #4 and inter- relating it too much with other power package components

I agree that a zero shift full stroke pattern is not practical.

BUT...

Don't make the mistake of referecing photos outside their intended description. Those photos are meant to depict ZONE #2 components as accurately as "humanly possible"...and ZONE #2 components ONLY (2-R). Plane Angle is Zone #3, so we should look at those photos if we want to comment on plane angle. So Homer Kelly really did not really view pages 126-130 as "his opportunity to display pictures of a stroke pattern".

Anyway, we've gone off topic. Can you comment or give us insight on the transcript of Homer Kelly in my previous post regarding four barrel patterns?

 

[Michael Jacobs]

I agree that a zero shift full stroke pattern is not practical.

BUT...

Don't make the mistake of referecing photos outside their intended description. Those photos are meant to depict ZONE #2 components as accurately as "humanly possible"...and ZONE #2 components ONLY (2-R). Plane Angle is Zone #3, so we should look at those photos if we want to comment on plane angle. So Homer Kelly really did not really view pages 126-130 as "his opportunity to display pictures of a stroke pattern".

Anyway, we've gone off topic. Can you comment or give us insight on the transcript of Homer Kelly in my previous post regarding four barrel patterns?

You are taking the point I made and wrapping it way out of context.... On any point or reference in the golfing machine someone can find a sentence or thing in the book that can be sprung off into a different context --- Oh wait, thats right you are the "messenger" so you already know that.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Right on Michael the messenger is delivering his message!