Suggestion for next Anti-Summit

[drewyallop]

Dr. Neal's talk about the importance of sequencing the three part of the body - hips, arm, hands was important and scary. His conclusion was that if the timing of the activation of these parts was less than precise there would be significant loss of power and swing consistency. Of course no one can be exactly right all the time but the pros do it better than amateurs. But even here it takes only a slight mis-timing to affect accuracy and distance. Is this why consistent golf is so difficult to repeat week after week for the tour guys? After all, how many pros put together two consecutive wins or even two top tens (and why Nicklaus' top ten and major runner-up record still puts him at the top of the great golfer heap in my view)?

Dr. Neal's work put me immediately in mind of Dr. Grober's work on timing and how it was so important to both pros and amateurs. Many pros travelling across many time zones stated that they had great difficulty in regaining their rhythm, presumably because of jet lag. But pros had much better timing and the dispersion of timings between swings was a lot less than amateurs.

In any case, Dr. Grober might be a good expert to have at the next anti-summit.

Drew

p.s. I did buy Grober's Sonic Golf apparatus and it definitely helped, but the hassle involved in getting it installed in clubs plus other shortcomings put me off it. PM me for details if interested.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dr. Neal's talk about the importance of sequencing the three part of the body - hips, arm, hands was important and scary. His conclusion was that if the timing of the activation of these parts was less than precise there would be significant loss of power and swing consistency. Of course no one can be exactly right all the time but the pros do it better than amateurs. But even here it takes only a slight mis-timing to affect accuracy and distance. Is this why consistent golf is so difficult to repeat week after week for the tour guys? After all, how many pros put together two consecutive wins or even two top tens (and why Nicklaus' top ten and major runner-up record still puts him at the top of the great golfer heap in my view)?

Dr. Neal's work put me immediately in mind of Dr. Grober's work on timing and how it was so important to both pros and amateurs. Many pros travelling across many time zones stated that they had great difficulty in regaining their rhythm, presumably because of jet lag. But pros had much better timing and the dispersion of timings between swings was a lot less than amateurs.

In any case, Dr. Grober might be a good expert to have at the next anti-summit.

Drew

p.s. I did buy Grober's Sonic Golf apparatus and it definitely helped, but the hassle involved in getting it installed in clubs plus other shortcomings put me off it. PM me for details if interested.

That's why I always repeat the efforts of theorists/biomechanists should be directed at macroscale studies aimed at weakening the impact of timing in the motion. Less timing issues = more automated motion - simple as that.
Why a machine works consistently ? because the time does not exist in its world other than to end a cycle and start a new one.

Cheers

 

[ekennedy]

Why do tour players not win or finish high up each week?

Its a complete mystery...but putting stats and weak mental games may have something to do with it. Otherwise, they could give the "best ball striker award" each Friday to some dude about to board a plane to the next event.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Why do tour players not win or finish high up each week?

Its a complete mystery...but putting stats and weak mental games may have something to do with it. Otherwise, they could give the "best ball striker award" each Friday to some dude about to board a plane to the next event.

Mystery ? Nah. Since complete automatization of the motion is impossible the guy who deals the best with timing issues during a given day (4 days) wins. Unless one is able to automate the motion so much that future followers call it "owning the swing".

Cheers

 

[ekennedy]

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there...

Remember when Tiger used to say he was winning with his C game? I'm quite sure he didn't own his swing that week. There are so many factors involved with winning golf tournaments and the guy who hits the most fairways and hits the ball closest to the pin on average doesn't always win. The guy who misses two putts inside 10 feet for the week generally takes home the bigger check. I really like your thoughts on bio-mechanics, but there are far more factors involved in winning golf tournaments than the player that best deals with timing issues.

Just sayin...

 

[Dariusz J.]

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there...

Remember when Tiger used to say he was winning with his C game? I'm quite sure he didn't own his swing that week. There are so many factors involved with winning golf tournaments and the guy who hits the most fairways and hits the ball closest to the pin on average doesn't always win. The guy who misses two putts inside 10 feet for the week generally takes home the bigger check. I really like your thoughts on bio-mechanics, but there are far more factors involved in winning golf tournaments than the player that best deals with timing issues.

Just sayin...

No probs, I understand you. But what you just wrote is exactly in-line of what I said. Woods's ability of dealing with timing issues is overhumanly big (who knows, may be even in Hagen's league if we can believe old books). Merge it with also overhuman physical talent and you have tournaments won with his C game. Not mentioning mental strength and impact on other players. But when he has days off, he is lost. He cannot make cuts. This is how he differs from someone who owned his swing.

Cheers

 

[ekennedy]

I hear you, Dariusz. He does have an amazing ability to make whatever he has that particular week work to his benefit. Jim Hardy refers to him as a cat (no pun intended.) You can hold him upside down and drop him and he will still land on his feet. Avoiding fire hydrants are a different story.

My feelings on timing are just that.. "feelings" and not backed up by any hard data. I watched Tiger warm up at Augusta for 45 minutes prior to teeing off a few years back and he hit or grazed every flag he aimed at, piped drivers into the center of the net, chipped a few balls in on the pitching green then made 5 or 6 straight 10 footers on the putting green like it was cool. He then proceeded to hit his opening tee shot 40 yards right and his tee shot on #2 40 yards left. He struggled all day to "find his swing" and his short game bailed his ass out and he shot even par. I tell my students that story when they complain that they can't take their swing from the range to the first tee. Professional athletes cannot replicate the adrenaline they feel during competition when they are on the practice tee so they will NEVER own their swing. Not for a day.

It's just shadow boxing.

Mike Tyson put it best..."Everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the face."

 

[Dariusz J.]

I hear you, Dariusz. He does have an amazing ability to make whatever he has that particular week work to his benefit. Jim Hardy refers to him as a cat (no pun intended.) You can hold him upside down and drop him and he will still land on his feet. Avoiding fire hydrants are a different story.

My feelings on timing are just that.. "feelings" and not backed up by any hard data. I watched Tiger warm up at Augusta for 45 minutes prior to teeing off a few years back and he hit or grazed every flag he aimed at, piped drivers into the center of the net, chipped a few balls in on the pitching green then made 5 or 6 straight 10 footers on the putting green like it was cool. He then proceeded to hit his opening tee shot 40 yards right and his tee shot on #2 40 yards left. He struggled all day to "find his swing" and his short game bailed his ass out and he shot even par. I tell my students that story when they complain that they can't take their swing from the range to the first tee. Professional athletes cannot replicate the adrenaline they feel during competition when they are on the practice tee so they will NEVER own their swing. Not for a day.

It's just shadow boxing.

Mike Tyson put it best..."Everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the face."

Haha. Although my weight is very serious, I'd rather not argue with Iron Mike

When I was at another forum, a guy was trying to convince me that Tiger was in a Hogan's league on the range when he was watching him hitting balls. I have heard two or three times in this spirit on forums.

If it's true - the question is why he cannot do the same while competing ? We all know his physical strength comparing to a guy who had been told not to walk again is ENORMOUS. Not mentioning he can chip, pitch and putt better. What's the problem then ?
I will tell you all what's the problem is. He wants to be Hogan. Moreover, he knows very well that even he beats Snead's and Nicklaus's records he won't still be real no.1. He's a lost case for me as for now. Sorry.

Cheers

 

[drewyallop]

My feelings on timing are just that.. "feelings" and not backed up by any hard data.

For lots of data check out Grober's site and these videos:

Sonic Golf

 

[ej20]

Timing as it relates to mechanics is a very personal issue.I doubt you can create a model that applies to every player.Almost every great player has some sort of idiosyncrasy but it works because they can repeat it so timing is not an issue for them for that particular move.Examples being Furyk's loop,Trevino's head dip through impact,Curtis Strange's sway off the ball,Ricky Fowlers's humongous lay off on the transition,Miller Barber's flying right elbow,Bruce Lietzke's "OTT" move and many more.

Does anyone here believe that Miller Barber would be an even greater player if he "fixed" his flying right elbow and looked more like Hogan's elbow that pointed straight down.You would think that a right elbow that doesn't fly as much would be less timing dependant because it doesn't move as much during the swing.

I suppose my point is that it is wiser to work around the moves that you naturally repeat as long as that move is not a death move like flipping before impact.What your body does naturally without thinking and conscious control is the best way to have a swing that doesn't rely too much on timing.Some of the most repeating swings I have seen all looked a bit quirky.

Furyk swears he doesn't feel that outrageous loop in his swing.Would he time it better if had a more orthodox position at the top of his swing?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Timing as it relates to mechanics is a very personal issue.I doubt you can create a model that applies to every player.Almost every great player has some sort of idiosyncrasy but it works because they can repeat it so timing is not an issue for them for that particular move.Examples being Furyk's loop,Trevino's head dip through impact,Curtis Strange's sway off the ball,Ricky Fowlers's humongous lay off on the transition,Miller Barber's flying right elbow,Bruce Lietzke's "OTT" move and many more.

Does anyone here believe that Miller Barber would be an even greater player if he "fixed" his flying right elbow and looked more like Hogan's elbow that pointed straight down.You would think that a right elbow that doesn't fly as much would be less timing dependant because it doesn't move as much during the swing.

I suppose my point is that it is wiser to work around the moves that you naturally repeat as long as that move is not a death move like flipping before impact.What your body does naturally without thinking and conscious control is the best way to have a swing that doesn't rely too much on timing.Some of the most repeating swings I have seen all looked a bit quirky.

Furyk swears he doesn't feel that outrageous loop in his swing.Would he time it better if had a more orthodox position at the top of his swing?

Yes, the impact of timing is a very personal issue, therefore, a microscale issue. I am trying to think in the macroscale where all humans are the same - two-armed, two-legged creatures with main body and a head above it.
If we assume that all what matters is one's talent only we should end disputing golf swing mechanics here. The history shows otherwise though - that's possible to be the best without an enormous talent after hard work on eliminating timing from the motion.

Cheers