The Challenge

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Brian Manzella

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Hi David.

I wasn't in last week as you had a nice little debate going with holenone and matt, etc.

These guys are very knowledgeable, in the case of holenone, as knowledgeable as any on the subject of The Golfing Machine.

However...this is NOT a "Golfing Machine Only" web site. This is MY web site and I have many ideas of my own about the golf swing, etc.

So,sir...without further comment....

The 1st string is now in the game....;)

I would love to debate you.

...so...here goes...

The first point up for debate is the "level" shoulder turn...

You take...in 5o words or less....is....
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
I answer this later.

For a debate to occur you must answer the first question first.

You will learn a lot about how to debate as well as the golf swing.

You have had your first lesson....stay on TOPIC.

...your 50 words or less on level shoulder turn:
 
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David Alford

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You're right, it should be a different topic. Should I post a new topic heading?

I'll be glad to debate you later. Better than that, if you'll allow it, I'd like to post
my swing clip. Should I emulate Mike Stoloc's swing? Or how about a hitter's "swing"? Then you and
everyone else can see whether I have any working knowledge of the golf swing. Apparently, Matt decided
to not accept my challenge.

We'll have something to look forward to. I bet you're a very nice guy. And in person, I'm extremely noncombative. I do enjoy debate and play hard as other here (Holenone, etc.) do.

The question I have for you, is do I have to pull my punches when debating you? It's your site, and you
can kick me off, obviously. Tell me what the rules are so I can stay in bounds, as it were.

Thanks in advance,
David Alford

David Alford
 
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pixie

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quote:Originally posted by brianman


For a debate to occur you must answer the first question first.
Click to expand...

Why MUST he do this?

I think it would be helpful if you answered his question, so we'll be able to see that you realize that you don't stupidly believe that you MUST be in control.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
David....you obviously don't know me very well.

Go ahead make my day.

I NEVER boot people off of this site, that's what people who ARE NOT expert and who don't know HOW to moderate do.

I will respond to you answer in the next post.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
David Alford said:
The shoulder turn is overrated.

I (BM) would think by that statement you would want me to agree or disagree.

Brian Manzella (me) says:
The motion---force and direction---that the shoulder make in the golf swing is VERY UNDERrated.

WHY is it underrated?
Becuase 'conventional' golf "wisdom" tells golfer to rotate their shoulders on the same plane on the backswing and the downswing and that IS exactly what many of them do. Incorrectly.

The shoulders should guide and power the arms/hands/club unit to and through imapct and that can ONLY be done optimally with the right shoulder traveling 'down plane' on the downstroke.

This down plane motion is nearly the opposite of the "high right shoulder" theory that was prevelant thoughout the early and mid 90's and still exist somewhat today.

No top player has ever had as HIGH a right shoulder as recommended by many of the 'name' instructors.

Becuase of the DRASTIC difference in the CORRECT shoulder motion of the CHAMPION golfers and the much different idea in the heads of most golfers and teachers....I say the the 'shoulder turn' is UNDERrated.
 
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David Alford

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We're on the same wavelength regarding your technical comments.

If a peron has errors in their shoulder turn, they better rate it high on their priority as something to work on.

I said the shoulder turn is over rated, because in some swing models you don't need a full shoulder turn to hit the ball hard. I mean really hard. Moe Norman hits the ball pretty darn hard with minimal shoulder turn and I believe I can hit even harder than Moe with a swing that also uses minimal shoulder turn and the ball goes straight every time. When I get back from my trip, I'll be glad to show this swing and you can see how much power is generated with comparatively minimal shoulder turn. In other swing models, I turn the shoulder in excess of 90 degrees, but I really don't get any more clubhead speed than the shoulder limited model.

David Alford
 
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MizunoJoe

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The steeper the arm swing, the less shoulder turn required on the BS. That's because the right shoulder doesn't have to travel as far to reach the Turned Shoulder Plane, on which the right shoulder drives down toward the ball.
 
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MizunoJoe

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Norman didn't use a Standard Shoulder Turn, but a Rotated Shoulder Turn by bending at the waist. His shoulders moved on the same plane, perpendicular to the spine, on the BS and DS, and with the single-axis setup, that shoulder plane matches the swing plane. In this single plane option, the amount the shoulders turn determines how much power is generated, which probably explains why, in his prime, he hit a 7 iron 140 yds.
 
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David Alford

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Well, Ben Hogan in his book Power Golf pg. 15 states his regular distance with the 7 iron was 135 yds. That ws back then...

btw, keep it quiet about the shoulder plane matching the swing plane, OK? Holeone is a the world's best guru, and he doesn't agree that's possible. No need to rock the ark.

David Alford
 
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