The "Critical 5"

[Brian Manzella]

"The Critical 5"

Horizontal Plane Angle (the plane line or "direction of swing).

"Resultant" Club Path (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from above on a 2D surface).

Club Face (the "true" point of the clubface, like a lie angle tool, as "viewed" from above as if on a 2D surface).

Angle of Attack (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from "face on" as if on a 2D surface).

Vertical Swing Plane (travel of the sweetspot TO & THOUGH the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from the precise angle of the bottom portion of the inclined plane, relative to the ground).

 

[westy]

true face and true path at separation cause the ball to fly off in the D-plane.
HSP= Where you (feel like you) swing relative to target.
AoA= How much you hit down/zero/up on the inclined plane.
You need to offset these two to get the true path to zero. (true path can be up or down, but in the target line plane....)
Trade your down and out against swinging left to get to zeroland...(with an iron)

Orbit the head somewhere in space to deliver the true path you want, have the face point somewhere else(where you want), this creates a plane for the ball to fly in. Understand THIS plane and learn to tilt it. Easy.
We know what the d-plane looks like now.
Kind of what i am asking, is a quantum leap here????, Where the emphasis leaves 'how to swing' and refocuses on to how to deliver the club, because now we know what the heck we are supposed to do with the face and path...?
'How to swing' impedes flow in most cases.
Delivery data + knowing what the heck to do = answers to direction control problems.
All the technique stuff should just be to help you snap your kinetic chain better, not to deliver the d-plane requirements. to deliver d-plane requirements, you just need to understand them.
I realize this may be a little idealistic, but i keep thinking this has been the core problem with instruction/improvement/models etc.
So delivery metrics = direction control....
Technique = precision and speed control
Question...: Are the critical 5 all relative to direction control only? Sure you can extrapolate them into speed via pattern optimization etc , but....can we start to differentiate between direction and speed in terms of the way we alter them?
Speed would be all about technique.
Direction would be all about creating the required D-plane for the selected shot via the 'Critical 5'.

 

[dannyc]

the critical...5?!?

"The Critical 5"

Horizontal Plane Angle (the plane line or "direction of swing).

"Resultant" Club Path (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from above on a 2D surface).

Club Face (the "true" point of the clubface, like a lie angle tool, as "viewed" from above as if on a 2D surface).

Angle of Attack (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from "face on" as if on a 2D surface).

Vertical Swing Plane (travel of the sweetspot TO & THOUGH the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from the precise angle of the bottom portion of the inclined plane, relative to the ground).

bmanz,

we are quite familiar with the importance of the first four.
what's with the vsp?

 

[birly-shirly]

is VSP not just the angle between the inclined plane during impact and the horizontal ?

visually, think clubshaft angle viewed from down the line, or a "dynamic lie angle".

of course, for any given club and its static lie angle, combined with shaft bend, shaft lean and clubface orientation, the VSP will influence whether the clubhead arrives at impact toe up or toe down

 

[Kevin Shields]

VSP has nothing to do with the shaft at all. People need to stop thinking of swing plane as shaft angle. It is the verticality of the plane that the sweetspot is traveling on. The shaft has zero to do with it. The shaft angle and Trackman VSP can be the same but seldom are.

 

[birly-shirly]

Kevin - are we really that far apart?

I said shaft angle from dtl as the best available visual clue to roughly where the angle is - not how the angle itself is measured. The inclined plane is the inclined plane - it's just unfortunate that it's invisible.

That said, through the bottom part of the swing, the clubhead moves a lot and the hands don't move much and the shaft connects the two. Doesn't it follow that, give or take the effect of shaft bend and the sweetspot being offset from the shaft, the shaft angle is a pretty close approximation of VSP. Are there any instances in which you think a steeper shaft angle WOULDN'T also mean a steeper VSP?

I'd be more interested to hear why VSP qualifies as one of the BIG 5 though.

 

[Michael Finney]

Kevin - are we really that far apart?

I said shaft angle from dtl as the best available visual clue to roughly where the angle is - not how the angle itself is measured. The inclined plane is the inclined plane - it's just unfortunate that it's invisible.

That said, through the bottom part of the swing, the clubhead moves a lot and the hands don't move much and the shaft connects the two. Doesn't it follow that, give or take the effect of shaft bend and the sweetspot being offset from the shaft, the shaft angle is a pretty close approximation of VSP. Are there any instances in which you think a steeper shaft angle WOULDN'T also mean a steeper VSP?

I'd be more interested to hear why VSP qualifies as one of the BIG 5 though.

birly, kevin's explanation is right on - i think i was where you are about two weeks ago.....think down the line view - the sweetspot travels on a certain angle as it works its way to the ground - not necessarily matching the static or dynamic lie angle or not necessarily having anything to do with droop...

forget the shaft and think sweetspot travel only

 

[savydan]

The Vertical Swing Plane controls how much Out (right) is in your Down.

Or, how much In (left) is in your Up.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Kevin - are we really that far apart?

I said shaft angle from dtl as the best available visual clue to roughly where the angle is - not how the angle itself is measured. The inclined plane is the inclined plane - it's just unfortunate that it's invisible.

That said, through the bottom part of the swing, the clubhead moves a lot and the hands don't move much and the shaft connects the two. Doesn't it follow that, give or take the effect of shaft bend and the sweetspot being offset from the shaft, the shaft angle is a pretty close approximation of VSP. Are there any instances in which you think a steeper shaft angle WOULDN'T also mean a steeper VSP?

I'd be more interested to hear why VSP qualifies as one of the BIG 5 though.

I see a ton of swings that stand the handle up and the VSP is very low. Shaft angle is meaningless when measuring VSP. Thinking of it can change some things but they are independent of one another. Good for clubfitting, though.

 

[mjstrong]

I see a ton of swings that stand the handle up and the VSP is very low.

These would tend to be swings with lots of inside-out, no?

 

[Kevin Shields]

You would think

Not always.

 

[mjstrong]

Can we have some examples of TOUR pros with fairly extreme examples of high VSP values vs. low VSP values?

For example, would somebody like Carl Petterson have a low VSP average throughout the set? Would Craig/Kevin Stadler be an example of high VSP average players?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Why would those guys be your examples?

 

[mjstrong]

I'm trying to imagine their swings, and pick a guy who I think comes into the ball on a fairly flat angle, and somebody who uses a steeper angle... I didn't pick either of them for any particular reason other than that.

 

[birly-shirly]

OK. I'm being outnumbered here by people who do this for a living, which is usually a sign that it's time to shut up.

Instead, here's a link to a post by Richie3Jack of this parish, which explains WITH PICTURES. Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Trackman Translations - Part I

I gotta be honest though (and a little stubborn) and mark that in each sequence shown, it looks like the shaft is going to lie pretty damn close to the VSP.

However, that's maybe a characteristic of good swings (or maybe just those particular good swings). I'd still be interested to hear what practical conclusions can be drawn from a particular VSP number.

Savydan is right in what he says, I'm sure. But if the end result is how much out or in your clubpath has, then don't you get that information in a more useable form directly from the "true path" number? So yes, all the figures inter-relate - but I'd be interested in when VSP is the factor that merits direct attention, rather than true path, hsp, aoa and face.

 

[ggsjpc]

Isn't the VSP measured relative to the target and not the actual plane itself?

 

[Kevin Shields]

OK. I'm being outnumbered here by people who do this for a living, which is usually a sign that it's time to shut up.

Instead, here's a link to a post by Richie3Jack of this parish, which explains WITH PICTURES. Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Trackman Translations - Part I

I gotta be honest though (and a little stubborn) and mark that in each sequence shown, it looks like the shaft is going to lie pretty damn close to the VSP.

However, that's maybe a characteristic of good swings (or maybe just those particular good swings). I'd still be interested to hear what practical conclusions can be drawn from a particular VSP number.

Savydan is right in what he says, I'm sure. But if the end result is how much out or in your clubpath has, then don't you get that information in a more useable form directly from the "true path" number? So yes, all the figures inter-relate - but I'd be interested in when VSP is the factor that merits direct attention, rather than true path, hsp, aoa and face.

Birly, Richie is misinterpreting that number. Take a book and lay it down like a plane At 45 degrees. If you take a pencil and put the entire unit on the book and swing it back and forth, the VSP would be the same for the whole pencil. But if you raised one end up, the other end can still swing along the plane (book). So the shaft has nothing to do with that number. If it helps a golfer to think of swing plane as being the shft plane, great. It just isnt what Trackman VSP is. If it comes up like Richie's at 63.1 degrees, it doesnt mean at all that the shaft is also at 63.1 degrees.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm trying to imagine their swings, and pick a guy who I think comes into the ball on a fairly flat angle, and somebody who uses a steeper angle... I didn't pick either of them for any particular reason other than that.

Those guys who use a steeper looking angle can have the clubhead traveling on a comparatively shallow angle. Stand a club up and drag it in a circle around you. 0 degree vertical swing plane. Get on your knees, hold the club almost parallel to the ground and you can swing the clubhead at an almost 90 degree VSP.

 

[savydan]

OK. I'm being outnumbered here by people who do this for a living, which is usually a sign that it's time to shut up.

Instead, here's a link to a post by Richie3Jack of this parish, which explains WITH PICTURES. Richie3Jack Golf Blog: Trackman Translations - Part I

I gotta be honest though (and a little stubborn) and mark that in each sequence shown, it looks like the shaft is going to lie pretty damn close to the VSP.

However, that's maybe a characteristic of good swings (or maybe just those particular good swings). I'd still be interested to hear what practical conclusions can be drawn from a particular VSP number.

Savydan is right in what he says, I'm sure. But if the end result is how much out or in your clubpath has, then don't you get that information in a more useable form directly from the "true path" number? So yes, all the figures inter-relate - but I'd be interested in when VSP is the factor that merits direct attention, rather than true path, hsp, aoa and face.

This should clear it up. There is a formula that determines the Club Path.

First, the definitions:

CP = Club Path
HSP = Horizontal Swing Plane
AA = Angle of Attack
VSP = Vertical Swing Plane
tan = tangent (from your high school trig class)

The formula:

CP = HSP - [AA x tan(90-VSP)]

The formula tells you a lot. First, there are two components that determine how far left or right of the target line the true path is. HSP is the first component. This is the basic direction of your swing right or left of the target line. This effect on the CP should be obvious.

Second, there is a "modifying" component of the Club Path that comes from your Angle of Attack and your VSP. If your AA is downward, your CP will shift more to the right than the HSP. Conversely, if your AA is upward, your CP will shift more to the left than the HSP.

If your AA is zero (you swing dead level) then your CP will simply be your HSP.

In addition, the higher your VSP (the more steep your swing plane) the less effect the AA has on your Club Path and vice versa.

For example, if you had a VSP = 90 deg (i.e. you swung like a Ferris Wheel) then the AA would have no effect on the Club Path. On the flip side, if you're a knuckle dragger with a very shallow or low VSP, your angle of attack has a greater influence on your resultant CP.

 

[Frans@France]

"The Critical 5"

Horizontal Plane Angle (the plane line or "direction of swing).

"Resultant" Club Path (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from above on a 2D surface).

Club Face (the "true" point of the clubface, like a lie angle tool, as "viewed" from above as if on a 2D surface).

Angle of Attack (the travel of the sweetspot trough the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from "face on" as if on a 2D surface).

Vertical Swing Plane (travel of the sweetspot TO & THOUGH the impact interval on the face of the inclined plane, as "viewed" from the precise angle of the bottom portion of the inclined plane, relative to the ground).

Which are the optimum values for those 5 for each club? Is any of those depended on the player's build ?