The "Dariusz J." Swing Theories Thread

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Our forum member "Dariusz J." is a big fan of Biomechanics.

This thread is being re-engineered to be a place holder for his theories, which he claims are based on biomechanics.

I would love to hear about his backswing positioning ideas.

He and I disagree fervently on the perils or promise of the Elbow Plane on the downswing, or like he likes to point out—"EEP or Early Elbow Plane."

Anyone's theories are welcomed here. We LOVE to learn new stuff.

But, this IS a place where you will be challenged by some bright guys, so be forewarned.

Enjoy the thread,

Brian
 

Dariusz J.

New member
I don't get the point of closing the yesterday's thread and starting this one. Sorry. It is obvious that 2-D pictures are misleading and changing the camera angle can give various results. It is obvious as well that only real truth seekers without any agendas would never use such tricks to support arguments.
IMO, the problem is to determine what spine angle is neutral for a human starting the backswing taking into account the natural shape of the spine (which is not like "|"). Not talking here how e.g. ball position established relative to the spine at setup can complicate the discussion which may be very complicated without it.

Cheers
 

Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
Dariusz,

Given your established position about elbow plane usage, and your knowledge of the spine "l", can you explain it in the context of:-
1. Lateral spine flexion in downswing,
2. Right shoulder internal rotation,
3. The right arm's role in the downswing given its ability to bend in only one direction at the elbow,
4. Different grip types and wrist motions,
5. Different clubs.

Cheers,
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Dariusz,

Given your established position about elbow plane usage, and your knowledge of the spine "l", can you explain it in the context of:-
1. Lateral spine flexion in downswing,
2. Right shoulder internal rotation,
3. The right arm's role in the downswing given its ability to bend in only one direction at the elbow,
4. Different grip types and wrist motions,
5. Different clubs.

Cheers,

Your 5 points show that biomechanics are not your weak point. And I mean it.
 
From reading Dariusz's posts, I think our difficulty understanding his ideas and points stem from a language barrier. He has some good ideas appears to be looking for the ideal golf swing to most consistently hit an ideal golf shot.

I for one would like to see more of Dariusz's ideas about the swing debated here-as the elbow plane was-as a learning experience for all parties, not necessarily for the "competition".
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Damon, thank you. It's second time recently I am being convinced BMAcademy's instructors have real class.

Whatever it is worth - I'll try to answer your points.

Cheers
 

Dariusz J.

New member
From reading Dariusz's posts, I think our difficulty understanding his ideas and points stem from a language barrier. He has some good ideas expressed on his website/forum and appears to be looking for the ideal golf swing to most consistently hit an ideal golf shot.

I for one would like to see more of Dariusz's ideas about the swing debated here-as the elbow plane was-as a learning experience for all parties, not necessarily for the "competition".


Thank you very much Spktho.
To be quite frank - it's not only language barrier though - my big mouth sometimes as well. And Polish mentality of fighting against tanks with a sword. :eek:

Let's be back to the original topic, please.

Cheers
 
Elbow plane Definition

I am a double novice TGM reader and have a question about the elbow plane and for that matter the Early Elbow Plane.
I have an idea in my head that the elbow plane could relate to swinging under the stick or in other words flatten the downswing.

Am I close?

Thanks for this Thread Brian!

Matt
 
I would like to find out a way to control the club face in a way that minimizes timing and happens as close to automatically as possible.

It seems to me that the left wrist and amount of twistaway is the key. I, and many others, owe Brian huge thanks for eliminating the slice. But, if the twistaway is over done I hit a pull and if it is not done enough I hit a push--the curve of the ball or path is easy to figure out now.

So far Kevin's suggestion of the strong left hand grip with a weak right hand has helped especially with the driver, but needs weakened with the irons to hit it straight.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
First of all, I'd like to thank Brian for his generosity and to start this thread.
Secondly, as said I can offer only the truth - yes, I am a big fan of biomechanics as the science that proved to be so important in many sport areas. However, I am not a biomechanics expert but an amateur theorist; my researches refer only to hard structure of human organism (bones and joints) plus some basic area of Newtonian physics. I am not able to research muscular/ligamental level (not mentioning neuron level) because I lack medical education and possibilities to run professional researches.
Thirdly, I am not afraid of sharp minds; in fact, I would love to be corrected in every area I am mistaken because it would mean I am cinstantly learning. Also in English that is not my native language, so please forgive my lingo mistakes.
Lastly, I am not a great player (in fact I am a weekend hacker who started to fulfill Mr.Hogan's dream of playing high 70-ies/low 80-ies I believe thanks to my researches aimed at automating the motion); I am not an instructor as well, therefore, my "mission" is not to prove someone is right or wrong in microscale; I work in macroscale which means that there is no zillion equally good ways to act but there are simply better and worse ways of acting for 2-legged and 2-armed creatures living in exactly the same physical 4-D reality.IMHO, there are several basis concepts (rules) that help to reach this goal such as e.g.: building and releasing energy from the ground up, subduing the motion of distal parts to the motion of the main body; swinging at a perpendicular plane to the core, leading the motion with that body side that corresponds to the direction of the motion, etc.

Now, the EEP (early elbow plane) is not the goal per se. It's just a logical result of benefitting from the above mentioned rule of swinging perpendicularily to the spine (core) with arms and club. Human joints are "constructed" the way they can move only in certain directions and planes. E.g. elbow joints, unfortunately, cannot bend back which makes it impossible to tie both forearms in one unit (assuming the humeruses cannot because of the distance between shoulder joints). That's why in order to follow the rule of swing perpendicularily to the core either we would need to swing with both arms extended (like Moe Norman) or to have only a part of the arm (forearm) that is square tho the spine (like all great EP golfers, Hogan, Trevino, Snead, Knudsen, Furyk). Please note here that all names cited in the above sentences are the best ballstrikers that ever lived - thus, we can presume that the rule is something as a common denominator for great ballstriking and consistent and repeatable results. If we assume now that it depends certainly on talent and hard work, but first of all on eliminating the impact of timing issues, no doubt following this rule (as well as other biophysical macroscale rules) would make a life of an average weekend hacker much easier.All biomechanical theories (these professional as well as these amateur like mine) never will replace true instruction, they rather should be just servants for instruction.

Lastly, the grip that Spktho mentioned (I call it the Biokinetical Grip) is another product of a great theoretical thinking and understanding how the hard stucture works (in this case: wrists joints). Kevin Shields told me recently that he used the idea for ages in his instructions. Ben Hogan used a version of this grip on his way to be the best ballstriker that ever lived after 1946. Yet noone really though ages looked at this phenomenon through the glasses of biophysicist, instead, everyone blindly following parallel V's theory without looking how e.g. wrists, palms and fingers are being "built" and what function they have while gripping the club.

OK, enough for the first post. We can discuss every single detail. Please ask and criticize as much as one wants. I'll answer as well as I can and if I lack arguments to support my ideas - I'll be the first to admit it. Thank you.


Cheers


P.S. I am leaving for a short holidays tomorrow with my family and will be without access to the net, therefore I won't be able to post starting tomorrow till Friday's evening.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Dariusz,

Given your established position about elbow plane usage, and your knowledge of the spine "l", can you explain it in the context of:-
1. Lateral spine flexion in downswing,
2. Right shoulder internal rotation,
3. The right arm's role in the downswing given its ability to bend in only one direction at the elbow,
4. Different grip types and wrist motions,
5. Different clubs.

Cheers,

Damon, as promised for what it's worth:

ad.1. Lateral flexion (bending to one side in the sagittal plane) of the spine in the downswing (secondary axis tilt) is dependent on the CoG shift in the pelvis area. Humans are bipedals, thus, the shift is a biomechanical necessity that happens automatically provided the motion is being guided sequentially from the ground up. IMO, the earlier the shift happens (see: post-accident Hogan where the shift happened before his upper part of the main body finished backswing) the better are chances to establish the rear elbow on the rear hip joint which guarantees perpendicularity of the rear forearm to the core.

ad.2. Shoulder rodation inwards happens unintentionally if the backswing is being lead with the rear side of the body. As said before, one of the golden rules I believe in is leading the motion with that body side that corresponds to the direction of the motion.

ad.3. The rear arm role in the downswing taking into account a very limited range of motion in the elbow joint (as you correctly noticed) is twofold in the macroscale - a) the humerus should tie its motion to the main body motion as much as possible, and b) the forearm should support the club as much as possible.

ad.4. The soundest from biokinetical point of view is merging the lead wrist deviation and the rear wrist flexion which can be achieved in only one way - merging strongish LH and weakish RH and forgetting not very wise IMO parallel V's theory. The natural position of the wrists when a golfer bends his spine forward - we shall find that neither "anatomical position" (palms are directed forward) nor "gorilla position" (palms are directed backwards) is natural for the wrists. When we stand freely and let our arms hang freely too, we can observe that the plane of the palms (both of them) are angled inward at ca. 45 degrees. And this is the inclination of the hands should be placed on the grip in order to maintain the neutral position of clavicle bones. Both palms are angled to each other 90 degrees letting to align naturally the lead wrist cocking (radial deviation) with the rear wrist hinging (dorsi flexion). The above scenario is crucial for creating optimal conditions for lag as well as for the trigger finger pressure point to act while approaching the impact zone.
Last but not least, this kind of grip helps vividly to achieve the elbow plane earlier since the flexion of the rear hand happens perpendicularily to the rear forearm practically through the entire motion.

ad.5. I wholeheartedly agree to those experts who claim that today's clubs are manufactured with a too upright lies, especially wedges and short/medium irons. Moreover, the dispersion of the lie angles in a set of irons seems to be too big. The length of the clubs is too big as well. All these issues and, especially, to upright lie angles make it more difficult for a golfer to return to the EP after transition.

Cheers
 
ad.4. The soundest from biokinetical point of view is merging the lead wrist deviation and the rear wrist flexion which can be achieved in only one way - merging strongish LH and weakish RH and forgetting not very wise IMO parallel V's theory. The natural position of the wrists when a golfer bends his spine forward - we shall find that neither "anatomical position" (palms are directed forward) nor "gorilla position" (palms are directed backwards) is natural for the wrists. When we stand freely and let our arms hang freely too, we can observe that the plane of the palms (both of them) are angled inward at ca. 45 degrees. And this is the inclination of the hands should be placed on the grip in order to maintain the neutral position of clavicle bones. Both palms are angled to each other 90 degrees letting to align naturally the lead wrist cocking (radial deviation) with the rear wrist hinging (dorsi flexion). The above scenario is crucial for creating optimal conditions for lag as well as for the trigger finger pressure point to act while approaching the impact zone.
Last but not least, this kind of grip helps vividly to achieve the elbow plane earlier since the flexion of the rear hand happens perpendicularily to the rear forearm practically through the entire motion.

Cheers

Interesting. Would you mind elaborating on exactly HOW this grip type creates optimal conditions for lag?

Second, How much of the trail hand "on top" are we talking here. It seems to get to an anatomically neutral position as in your standing natural analogy (45*) would be too much? Is there a good player to youtube?

Kevin, it seems as though you have some experience with this, why do you teach this (benefits?) and do you yourself grip it this way?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Just to be clear, I certainly dont teach it to everyone but feel its natural for alot of reasons and it tends to get the pressure points on the exact part of the grip necessary for good lag and face control. Its not anything crazy. A ton of Tour pros have slightly strong left hands and a right hand more on top.
 
Just to be clear, I certainly dont teach it to everyone but feel its natural for alot of reasons and it tends to get the pressure points on the exact part of the grip necessary for good lag and face control. Its not anything crazy. A ton of Tour pros have slightly strong left hands and a right hand more on top.

I am glad you said that, because I thought I was nuts. I see lots of pros with what looks like really strong left hands and then I look at their right hands and they are pretty much neutral, I was beginning to think I didn't know what a proper grip was suppose to look like.
 
Just to be clear, I certainly dont teach it to everyone but feel its natural for alot of reasons and it tends to get the pressure points on the exact part of the grip necessary for good lag and face control. Its not anything crazy. A ton of Tour pros have slightly strong left hands and a right hand more on top.

What do you feel about a lead hand thumb that runs down the middle of the shaft vs. a more conventional thumb that runs down slightly to the right, assuming the lead hand is still "slightly strong"?
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Interesting. Would you mind elaborating on exactly HOW this grip type creates optimal conditions for lag?

Second, How much of the trail hand "on top" are we talking here. It seems to get to an anatomically neutral position as in your standing natural analogy (45*) would be too much? Is there a good player to youtube?

Steve, first of all sorry for the delayed answer. Just have returned home.

ad.1) The idea of merging weakish RH and strongish LH is, in fact, merging the flexion of the rear wrist with the deviation of the lead wrist - assuming the 45* angle between wrist motion planes (see ad.2) below). The range of wrist flexion (hinging/unhinging) is double bigger (ca.60*) than the range of wrist deviation (cocking/uncocking - ca 30*). When a golfer correctly uses his rear side to pull during the backswing, the rear wrist hinging forces the lead wrist cocking motion - and maximizes its range potential because 60* > 30*. Pure biomechanics.

ad.2) Yes, it would be physically difficult, if not impossible, to achieve the optimal (and natural for a man standing freely) 45* angle between palms when holding the club because of the way fingers are being "attached" to the palm. That's why every degree matters and that's why, I believe, Hogan presented his version of overlapping method of the RH pinky - not putting into the slot between LH index and middle fingers but rather hooking around the LH index 2nd joint.

Lastly, what Kevin said - it is much easier to feel the three hands pressure points correctly. PP#1 because of the flexion vs. deviation disproportion already described above, PP#2 because the strongish LH grip creates leverage on the meaty part of the palm, and, finally, PP#3 because the weakish RH on top of the grip forces the rear index finger to perform the trigger position automatically (the weaker the grip, the bigger the gap between the index and middle fingers becomes).

Cheers
 

Dariusz J.

New member
What do you feel about a lead hand thumb that runs down the middle of the shaft vs. a more conventional thumb that runs down slightly to the right, assuming the lead hand is still "slightly strong"?

I know the question was not to me but to Kevin - but let me put my 3 cents here. If you watch closely post-accident Hogan you notice a shortish LH thumb at address that becomes a longish LH thumb at the top (!). It's a physical consequence of subduing a smaller range of motion (deviation/cocking) to a bigger range of motion (flexion/hinging) that was discussed in the above post. The LH thumb simply slides and elongates automatically on the grip which is perfectly normal since the PP#1 activates fully not earlier than during changing of the orientation of the whole motion (transition).

Cheers

P.S. Look at famous magazine cover pic of Hogan's hands at the top - I do not know how to upload pics here so I put the link to the BioThread at WRX - page 14, post no. 545:
The Big Picture of Biokinetics in a golf swing motion - GolfWRX.com - Page 14

Cheers
 
An issue that may arise from the desire for automation, is that of making the setup very detailed. It sounds like nearly evertyhing need be perfectly positioned at setup if it's going to have a chance at success. The setup in that case is far from "automatic" from both a physical standpoint and perhaps mentally as well since the player may become tentative.

From my own personal experience, I don't take care for a setup which has me running thru a checklist all the time. That would take a great deal of practice to ingrain. And to be honest, I may never feel totally comfortable. It's very difficult to actually play a real course when you're so focused on setup.

I do respect your studies, this is just a question.
 
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