The dreaded and misunderstood...underplane

[Kevin Shields]

I just had a few exchanges with Guitar Hero about underplane and it seems to me that we, and many others either have conflicting ideas of what it even means.

Maybe Brian or others could help. If the True Path AT IMPACT is the only thing that matters, would it stand to reason that if you're hitting a shot off the ground you would have to hit it fat to be considered under the plane on Trackman, right? What kind of numbers for say, a 6 iron, would you associate with underplane.

Many top players have that underplane look (Toms, Cink, young Tiger cub, etc) but make the adjustment to play at a high level. To me, this type of player is still underplane, they've just moved their spine or hand path higher or rotate more so they wouldn't crash.

So my question to the teachers is...what does it take for you to even diagnose someone as underplane? Is it shaft angle at release point? Impact? Last parallel? Do they have to hit it fat?

 

[holeout]

Kevin,

Not sure if it will help your definition, but I fought undrplane because of too much force along the shaft and not enough across it. I pulled way too much with the left hand and dragged the handle down and through impact far too much. The Toss has cured me, however.

p.s. Check your PMs man.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Kevin,

Not sure if it will help your definition, but I fought undrplane because of too much force along the shaft and not enough across it. I pulled way too much with the left hand and dragged the handle down and through impact far too much. The Toss has cured me, however.

p.s. Check your PMs man.

No doubt about it. Right arm addition.

I actually have a real good picture of it myself. Im just wondering in light of Trackman info, what kind of numbers would indicate underplane as well as some other instructors opinions.

P.S. force along the shaft is the killer

 

[holeout]

No doubt about it. Right arm addition.

I actually have a real good picture of it myself. Im just wondering in light of Trackman info, what kind of numbers would indicate underplane as well as some other instructors opinions.

P.S. force along the shaft is the killer

My guess is that Trackman would say something like this:

Very inside-out short irons. Decent downward strike.

Shallowed out a little more with mid-irons. Still pretty inside-out.

Very very shallow with fairway woods, and some long-irons. Possibly a bit less inside-out. A better player thins it some, fats it every so often. 7-10 handicaps fat it 3 out of 10 times.

Upward strike with the driver and maybe 3 degrees inside-out. You can get away with it with more with the driver, making it more deceiving.

I think that underplane is more than just being inside-out. The shallowness (relative to what you should be) is what makes underplane more deadly. Especially with the longer clubs, short of the driver.

p.s. Kevin I sent you a reply. If you still can't get it, send me your email .

 

[birdie_man]

Underplane would be anything under the desired path for the desired shot no?

Or maybe a path that does not produce a playable shot.

Anything 'under(neath)' a perceived 'optimum'...

No?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I think you can be under plane and still be outside in to the target line. Trackman doesnt understand plane line.

The barrel of a baseball bat must stay higher than your hands relative to path your hands are taking to the ball. I think it is the same with golf. You can play well on so many different angles and paths but the one constant is you cannot play consistently well when the sweetspot drops below the angle of your hand path without some drastic compensations.

 

[cnadon]

expand?

No doubt about it. Right arm addition.

I actually have a real good picture of it myself. Im just wondering in light of Trackman info, what kind of numbers would indicate underplane as well as some other instructors opinions.

P.S. force along the shaft is the killer

Dear Kevin,

Could you say a bit more about right arm addition? I've got SD. Is this the toss?

Also, could anyone give me a quick explanation of the difference between force along and across the shaft?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Right arm addition is when in the downswing you cahange from force along the shaft (pulling, swinging) to force across the shaft. For optimal results you should do it roughly when the shaft is vertical for the last time in the downswing.

 

[puttmaster]

Right arm addition is when in the downswing you cahange from force along the shaft (pulling, swinging) to force across the shaft. For optimal results you should do it roughly when the shaft is vertical for the last time in the downswing.

Kevin,

I wasn't aware of the terminology, but...I have had better-than-normal ball striking days when it felt like I was pulling with my left hand/arm for the first part of the downswing and then pushing/releasing/extending with my right hand/arm from that point through impact.

On those days, the swing felt more rhythmic and less hurried, too. Would these feelings be consistent with what you are describing as right arm addition?

thanks,
puttmaster

 

[vjcapron]

So my question to the teachers is...what does it take for you to even diagnose someone as underplane? Is it shaft angle at release point? Impact? Last parallel? Do they have to hit it fat?

There are numerous ways to tell.

On video, from down-the-line view, focus on the clubhead - not the shaft. The clubhead on the downswing at waist high will be under an extension of the shaft plane drawn at address.

What you'll see on all the great players, whether they are "on-planers", "in-and-over" players like Bruce Lietzke, or "re-routers" like Furyk or Freddy is that the clubhead will be travelling down shaft angle plane for the last 2-3 feet before impact.

When you are on the course, take a look at your divots and impact point. Shallow divots or divots pointing to the right of the target is a sign of being underplane. Iron shots off of the heel are also a sign of being underplane.

Look at your ballflight. If you are blocking or hooking, you know you are too far inside out (i.e. underplane). Sometimes, pulling short irons can be caused by swinging too far inside-out because the bad path is overcompensated by a closed clubface (this is termed a "clubface pull").

Whatever your underplane ailment, Never Hook Again pattern will get you out of that mode in a hurry.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Kevin,

I wasn't aware of the terminology, but...I have had better-than-normal ball striking days when it felt like I was pulling with my left hand/arm for the first part of the downswing and then pushing/releasing/extending with my right hand/arm from that point through impact.

On those days, the swing felt more rhythmic and less hurried, too. Would these feelings be consistent with what you are describing as right arm addition?

thanks,
puttmaster

Definately

 

[Kevin Shields]

There are numerous ways to tell.

On video, from down-the-line view, focus on the clubhead - not the shaft. The clubhead on the downswing at waist high will be under an extension of the shaft plane drawn at address.

What you'll see on all the great players, whether they are "on-planers", "in-and-over" players like Bruce Lietzke, or "re-routers" like Furyk or Freddy is that the clubhead will be travelling down shaft angle plane for the last 2-3 feet before impact.

When you are on the course, take a look at your divots and impact point. Shallow divots or divots pointing to the right of the target is a sign of being underplane. Iron shots off of the heel are also a sign of being underplane.

Look at your ballflight. If you are blocking or hooking, you know you are too far inside out (i.e. underplane). Sometimes, pulling short irons can be caused by swinging too far inside-out because the bad path is overcompensated by a closed clubface (this is termed a "clubface pull").

Whatever your underplane ailment, Never Hook Again pattern will get you out of that mode in a hurry.

All good points, and no one would argue. But if you have the clubhead under an extension of the shaft plane, you can just raise your hands and take care of that and uncock your left wrist more to hit it. You can also swing more left to make it look different on video and move your divots. Ive done them all. No matter what line you use on video or your ballflight or where your divots start, underplane or underneath has more to do with handpath than anything else. At least it warrants more discussion cuz alot of people could be helped IMO.

Brian? Brian? Video Answer?

 

[Burner]

Kevin,

I wasn't aware of the terminology, but...I have had better-than-normal ball striking days when it felt like I was pulling with my left hand/arm for the first part of the downswing and then pushing/releasing/extending with my right hand/arm from that point through impact.

On those days, the swing felt more rhythmic and less hurried, too. Would these feelings be consistent with what you are describing as right arm addition?

thanks,
puttmaster

Well, PM, whilst you have Kevin's ("Definately") agreement you have certainly confused me.

How do you reconcile this offering - post #22 with the above?

 

[puttmaster]

Well, PM, whilst you have Kevin's ("Definately") agreement you have certainly confused me.

How do you reconcile this offering - post #22 with the above?

Burner -- I read post #22 from the other thread and, rather than adding confusion, it actually reconfirms the feeling involved with my post above. By that I mean, the FEEL is ... the left arm/hand pulls (or the club simply falls) at the start of the downswing, with the right arm/hand supporting, and then hits a pendulum FEEL past halfway down, where the FEEL is of the right arm/hand pushing while the left arm/hand supports the path through impact. (Note that the feel is very much one arm/hand supporting the other throughout the swing, not overpowering and collapsing it.)

It seems the left ulna/firm left wrist helps preserve the swing path for this left arm/hand-then-right arm/hand sensation, which is aided by a more acute awareness of the clubhead (and its weight) in orbit, as described in post #22. (Wow, this stuff is hard to put in words!)

Hope that makes sense. All I know is that with Kevin's affirmation, I'm going to try to further revive and cultivate that FEEL on the range and course this weekend.

 

[cmartingolf]

The dirt...

So my question to the teachers is...what does it take for you to even diagnose someone as underplane? Is it shaft angle at release point? Impact? Last parallel? Do they have to hit it fat?

I suppose if we didn't have a medium to hit from, it would be a little harder, but I'm a big fan of reading the divot.

1. Can someone take a divot? Some of you long time BM'ers know I'm a big fan of fairway bunker practice for the tighter impact tolerances, core/balance work (my extent of TPI and ease on the joints.

2. Where is the divot? Is it behind the ball or infront of the ball? BPS will have a hard time with long irons out of fairway bunkers!!

3. How deep is the divot? This shouldn't be a BPS issue or the player is really out to right field.

That pretty much spells it out to me.

To add: I don't think you have to hit it fat to be a BPS'er either. I'm a lifelong BPS'er (I'd guess that's achilles heel of all good sticks anyway) as the clubs get longer. But....I must say that through the forum along with BM's coaching I have crystalized some thoughts over the last 18 months and I'm LOVING the striking and tolerating the missing....

I could always compress it, but the NHA pattern, particularly with the 5 iron thru driver, has me a little giddy.

 

[rogerdodger]

Another underplane question, does underplane tend to move the right hand to the right during the swing? I can start my right hand at neutral, but at impact, it drops seriously stron. I now think this is a symptom, not a cause. Any theories?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Another underplane question, does underplane tend to move the right hand to the right during the swing? I can start my right hand at neutral, but at impact, it drops seriously stron. I now think this is a symptom, not a cause. Any theories?

You're pulling too hard and raising the lead side too much.

 

[Burner]

Burner -- I read post #22 from the other thread and, rather than adding confusion, it actually reconfirms the feeling involved with my post above. By that I mean, the FEEL is ... the left arm/hand pulls (or the club simply falls) at the start of the downswing, with the right arm/hand supporting, and then hits a pendulum FEEL past halfway down, where the FEEL is of the right arm/hand pushing while the left arm/hand supports the path through impact. (Note that the feel is very much one arm/hand supporting the other throughout the swing, not overpowering and collapsing it.)

It seems the left ulna/firm left wrist helps preserve the swing path for this left arm/hand-then-right arm/hand sensation, which is aided by a more acute awareness of the clubhead (and its weight) in orbit, as described in post #22. (Wow, this stuff is hard to put in words!)

Hope that makes sense. All I know is that with Kevin's affirmation, I'm going to try to further revive and cultivate that FEEL on the range and course this weekend.

Thanks PM. I'll take another pass at #22 and try to get the feel for it.