The problem with method teachers is....

[jpvegas1]

Watching the Charles Barkley project got me thinking about what the problem is, when working with a method teacher.

It seems to me that is what happens whenever you work for a long time with a method teacher To get the same feeling that you are performing the method you have to exaggerate the method more and more.

Years ago, I saw Curtis Strange at an outing, and someone asked him why he switched from Ballard to Leadbetter when he won two opens working with Ballard. He essentially said that in order to get the feeling that he was doing what Ballard was teaching he was having to exagerate the move more and more so that eventually he was moving well off the ball. That to me summed up the problem of working with a teacher that has a "method" for making a golf swing.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I'm not so sure I agree with that. I've worked with non-method teachers and basically we try to attack the problematic parts of the swing that are the root cause of shots that are giving me problems and often times it's a feeling that you're really exaggerating the feeling. Feels really odd, then you look at yourself on camera and you're often:

1. Still doing the same thing you've been doing.

or

2. Slightly improved.

or

3. In the exact motion/position you want to be in.

The problem with method teachers is simply that one swing does not fit all. I'm really not sure what Haney is trying to accomplish with Charles' backswing, so I could see your reasoning behind it. But, even non-method teachers often try to get the student to exaggerate a certain motion, especially if the student has ingrained that part of the swing.




3JACK

 

[savydan]

I agree that lots of teachers use exaggeration to develope a feel.

Example: NHA - David Toms - miss the ball and take a divot way in front of the ball - drill.

And by most folks perspective, Strange WAS moving off the ball when he won his 2 Opens.

 

[kc8kir]

You know, watching the next to last episode of "The Haney Project" this weekend, I was really feeling sorry for the guy (Barkley) and furious at Haney. Barkley obviously wants to get better. Heck, even with the hitch he occassionally pounds the ball a good distance. Coordination is not the problem. Then comes Haney and the Golf Channel preaching "well if he can teach Tiger, he should definitely be able to teach Charles". Bull! Just watch a DTL video of Charles trying to do Haney's flat swing model. Charles has NO room whatsoever to get from the backswing to an impact position. His only choice is lift, stop, jump, shimmy out of the way, and whip the club through. Hank hasn't made the problem easier. It's worse. At least when Charles took the club more vertical, he played with it in front of his body. Now it looks like even if Charles gets back to the ball with Hank's swing, he'll block the ball off the planet.

Charles needs an instructor that will get him back to basics. Chipping and pitching, sans hitch. Work it out on small swings. Learn to make the hands work together and create a fluid motion. Who cares if he is a "hitter" or "swinger"? Heck, with his coordination, he'll probably be able to do either. In any case, at least he will be focusing on creating a motion that creates solid impact, rather than a bunch of pretty lines on a screen.

I couldn't believe Haney's explanation of Charles' problem when they looked at his swing on video. "You see, you take it up here, and it has nowhere to go" "If you take it back on plane like this, then it will go here and you'll be fixed!"... right... because every swing can be fixed by simply getting "on plane". It was ludicrous, but poor Charles bought into it.

Seeing his friends say things like "his swing is smooth on the range, but when he hits the course, it breaks" and then Haney stating "well we made progress, but he needs to work out taking it to the course"... unbelievable. First off, Charles' range swings have been a series of loopy drills that make Trevino and Fuyrk look conventional. Second, what good is a "range only" teacher? If it only works on the driving range, I don't want it. That just leads to frustration for the golfer, and more money for the instructor (as the student keeps coming back to the range depressed, leaving with high hopes, and doing this over and over and over).

What is the problem with method teachers? For a lot of golfers, the method just doesn't work, and the teachers are not wise enough, or honest enough, to admit when they need to either say "I can't help you" or "We should try something else". My last instructor was this way... and after 3 lessons, it drove me nuts. I went from hitting good, to hitting bad, to severe shanks, to an instructor just saying "I don't know". No-one wants, or deserves that, especially for a game that is supposed to be recreation.

 

[softconsult]

"Second, what good is a "range only" teacher? If it only works on the driving range, I don't want it. That just leads to frustration for the golfer, and more money for the instructor (as the student keeps coming back to the range depressed, leaving with high hopes, and doing this over and over and over)."



I certainly have no idea where you came up with the concept of a "range only " teacher. Seems to me that there has always been an element of great practice, but some difficulty executing as well on the course. I mean who amoung us has not warmed up hitting some really good shots, only to blow on the first tee? If it doesn't get rapidly better as the round begins, then that's a large problem.

Barkely is an extreme example of mind getting in the way on the course. Short of paying an instructor for on-course lessons, $$$$$, I don't know how an instructor would know what the typical student actually does on the course.

 

[savydan]

Charles is muscle and fat bound and has difficulty, to say the least, keeping a shaft "on plane".

He also has ball-itis: His swing changes DRASTICALLY from practice swing to range swing to on-course swing.

Severe challenges for anyone to fix.

 

[kc8kir]

"Second, what good is a "range only" teacher? If it only works on the driving range, I don't want it. That just leads to frustration for the golfer, and more money for the instructor (as the student keeps coming back to the range depressed, leaving with high hopes, and doing this over and over and over)."



I certainly have no idea where you came up with the concept of a "range only " teacher. Seems to me that there has always been an element of great practice, but some difficulty executing as well on the course. I mean who amoung us has not warmed up hitting some really good shots, only to blow on the first tee? If it doesn't get rapidly better as the round begins, then that's a large problem.

Barkely is an extreme example of mind getting in the way on the course. Short of paying an instructor for on-course lessons, $$$$$, I don't know how an instructor would know what the typical student actually does on the course.

"Range only" teachers, in my opinion, are those that continuously use band aid fixes and gimics to treat the student's problems and produce intermittent results, rather than attacking the root cause and encouraging permanent development of good habits. The latter transfers onto the course, the former does not. Granted, the student still has to do their part, but some teachers, in my opinion, don't teach how to play "golf", they teach how to play "driving range pro".

 

[mjstrong]

Charles is muscle and fat bound and has difficulty, to say the least, keeping a shaft "on plane".

He also has ball-itis: His swing changes DRASTICALLY from practice swing to range swing to on-course swing.

Severe challenges for anyone to fix.

I didn't see all the episodes past the third one, but it seemed like they didn't pay enough attention to his body. I would like to see a test of his physical limitations (ie. where he lacks mobility) incorporated into his rebuilding.

 

[btp]

I think you need to give people what they want. Most people want change, but don't want to change. Sometimes, you need bandaids. You can't perform major surgery on every student or your lesson book would be empty. Most students don't have the time or commitment to change. I've seen pro's not change the scores of their students and the students keep coming back for years, smoke and mirrors. Sometimes you fix someone so well that they don't need to come back.

As for the range vs. golfing. While playing, the only time I was able to hit three shots with the same club on the course is after I hit two OB. Stop putting every ball on a nice lie, and switch clubs, change your target and your range game will probably be just like your golf game.

If a building blocks type stategy wouldn't work for Charles, I would switch him to left handed.

 

[self-mastery]

He should do more of a kenny perry type move.

 

[softconsult]

"Range only" teachers, in my opinion, are those that continuously use band aid fixes and gimics to treat the student's problems and produce intermittent results, rather than attacking the root cause and encouraging permanent development of good habits."

Ok, now I understand what you mean. But let's be realistic here. The number of people who seriously will work hard and pay for lesson after lesson to develop a good golf swing is, I think, very limited as compared to the number of people who play golf. So, from the instructor's viewpoint, how is he/she going to really sell a comprehensive instructional approach.

Of course this presumes that the instructor has the knowledge. It also presumes that the instructor has the communication skills to get his points across.

I've taken my share of lessons over the years. They always been from club pro's. All I really got was what I already knew.

Then you have the instructors that are in it for the money (not a bad thing) except they purposely dole out the knowledge in dribs and drabs to keep the student coming back for months and months. We have one of those in a neighboring town. He's very busy. He's a good marketer. He lies about his association with Leadbetter and isn't even a PGA member. I tried him. Ridiculous method instructor hell bent on his interpretation on Leadbetter swing.

Tried another Pro at a very high cotton club. I call him "Jump Up" because that was his method that he took from his former boss somewhere around Hilton Head. This didn't last beyond one lesson.

So I upped the anti and took a lesson from Brian. As I have previously stated, I'm happy.

 

[jpvegas1]

I just finished reading the book by Gummer, Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine and there is a quote by Hank Haney that illustrates a problem that method teaching can lead to.

When Haney stopped working with Bobby Clampett he was quoted as saying: "either I'm not teaching him the right thing, or he's not doing what I'm telling him to do, I believe it's the latter."

This quote to me shows a lot of arrogance, Haney is saying my method is correct, I'm teaching the right things, but you're not doing it correctly. At least Haney told Clampett that he couldn't help him anymore, but he was unwilling to admit that his method or teaching style might be flawed.

 

[Zztop]

"Range only" teachers, in my opinion, are those that continuously use band aid fixes and gimics to treat the student's problems and produce intermittent results, rather than attacking the root cause and encouraging permanent development of good habits."

Ok, now I understand what you mean. But let's be realistic here. The number of people who seriously will work hard and pay for lesson after lesson to develop a good golf swing is, I think, very limited as compared to the number of people who play golf. So, from the instructor's viewpoint, how is he/she going to really sell a comprehensive instructional approach.

Of course this presumes that the instructor has the knowledge. It also presumes that the instructor has the communication skills to get his points across.

I've taken my share of lessons over the years. They always been from club pro's. All I really got was what I already knew.

Then you have the instructors that are in it for the money (not a bad thing) except they purposely dole out the knowledge in dribs and drabs to keep the student coming back for months and months. We have one of those in a neighboring town. He's very busy. He's a good marketer. He lies about his association with Leadbetter and isn't even a PGA member. I tried him. Ridiculous method instructor hell bent on his interpretation on Leadbetter swing.

Tried another Pro at a very high cotton club. I call him "Jump Up" because that was his method that he took from his former boss somewhere around Hilton Head. This didn't last beyond one lesson.

So I upped the anti and took a lesson from Brian. As I have previously stated, I'm happy.

What a lot of these so called RANGE teachers lack is knowing how people learn! How a persons conscious and subconscious takes in information and then processes that info for the physical body to perform, without constant interference from that same source, if you catch my drift. There's a better way to learning skills, lot's of info on that subject. Range teachers haven't a clue.