The roll on the downswing question. (swingers)

[wanole]

Brian has me working on the roll threw the ball and follow thru. It IS remarkable how well you hit the ball this way when I acomplish it right. I still say David Toms does this best out of the tour players I have seen.

My question is if you start the roll on the downswing (at least when I try) doesn't this
cause thworaway? If I don't uncock my wrist when I roll the club will point straight away from me when my arm comes below hip high. Hope you understand what I am asking. Some of this is hard to translate without pics.

 

[EdZ]

The roll has to be on plane. Assuming you stay on plane, you can make a 'smoooooooth' roll with even tempo from the top. Chances are you are out of sequence when you throw away, not moving from the ground up. Same 'rpms' - body rotation, arm rotation. Try a slower tempo (drill hitting your 160 club 100 yards).

No doubt about the benefits of full roll - I remember when I was about 11 or 12 shooting a 75 for the first time, my handicap was 15 at the time and the local paper had a short bit on it, net 60 - that was the first time I 'got' full roll. I didn't understand it then, and it was a while before I came back to it. That was the key that day though. Even a few years ago I recall saying to my good friend during a round "when I get off with my swing, remind me to roll my left arm". I had always played with a 'swing', although am now hitting much more often. The 'roll' is more of a 'screwdriver' motion, rather than a 'flip the hand over' motion, so no it shouldn't point out in front of you, that would be a flip (ok, maybe not the right word, different than 'throwaway' flip - a bent left wrist).

does that make sense?


wow - just noticed I hit 1500 posts! What a nut I am!

 

[wanole]

somewhat...I just want to make sure my left wrist stays cocked long enough not to throw away. I have hit some darts with the feeling at impact and follow thru, so I am pretty pumped about trying it earlier in my swing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

quote:Originally posted by wanole

Brian has me working on the roll through the ball and follow thru. It IS remarkable how well you hit the ball this way when I acomplish it right. I still say David Toms does this best out of the tour players I have seen.

My question is if you start the roll on the downswing (at least when I try) doesn't this
cause throwaway?

Nope.

Three separate things:

Roll - #3 Accumulator (rotational wrist motion)
Uncocking - #2 Accumulator (perpendicular wrist motion)
Left Wrist bend - Clubhead Throwaway (horizontal wrist motion)

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

quote:Originally posted by wanole

Brian has me working on the roll through the ball and follow thru. It IS remarkable how well you hit the ball this way when I acomplish it right. I still say David Toms does this best out of the tour players I have seen.

My question is if you start the roll on the downswing (at least when I try) doesn't this
cause throwaway?

Nope.

Three separate things:

Roll - #3 Accumulator (rotational wrist motion)
Uncocking - #2 Accumulator (perpendicular wrist motion)
Left Wrist bend - Clubhead Throwaway (horizontal wrist motion)

There has always been confusion in a Swinging golf stroke about where and when the roll begins and ends, when the hinge action occurs and when the swivel begins and ends.

Everything must occur on the incline swing plane. A ‘true swinger’ will roll the hands back down the swing plane (remember he turned his hands to the right) and let centrifugal force release accumulator # 2- a vertical motion while still on an incline. Homer said learning to release the clubhead (acc#2) while still on an incline plane was the hardest thing for him to do.

Once Acc#2 is released, the clubface and the back of the left hand will square itself with help of the horizontal hinge motion- a closing of the clubface. This is a small subtle movement that lasts only a few inches.

Only after impact and the hinge action, does the swivel begin and it is a small “twist” of the left hand leading into the final roll of the arms.

You can look at the swivel for swingers as a safety valve – without it the left wrist could only bend onto itself, losing the flat wrist. Without the hand’s education of the swivel and it filed in one’s computer - clubhead throwaway prior to impact could occur. The swivel is the great release valve of spent impact power.

I’m sorry for going on here, back to the clubhead throwaway question from Wanole. If you drive your hands ahead of the clubhead toward an aiming point you won’t lose clubhead lag. Allow the left wrist to only work perpendicular- up and down in vertical motion on that incline plane (remember it was tough for Homer to do at first) and NEVER in a horizontal movement (left wrist bend) and you will not ever have clubhead throwaway.

 

[wanole]

Hey 6Bee..Glad to see you post. How are you playing?

 

[wanole]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

Allow the left wrist to only work perpendicular- up and down in vertical motion on that incline plane (remember it was tough for Homer to do at first) and NEVER in a horizontal movement (left wrist bend) and you will not ever have clubhead throwaway.

Ok, I am trying to picture this. I know we talk wrists here, but in this case lets talk palm of the left hand. Isn't the palm suppose to face against the plane on the way down then turn till the back of the hand is toward right field at impact. Then it rolls so the back of the left hand is against the plane?

This is how I picture all this. The wrist though would be agaist the plane and not perpendicular till impact, then go back against the plane on the way to finish, but on the other side of the wrist.


Do I have this all wrong?

 

[Martee]

I believe that a swinger is a sequenced release motion

As I understand it during the downstroke, it would be uncocking then rolling (Wrist motion and then Hand motion, Acc#2 - Acc#3).

That sequence has the left palm against the plane on the way down till the Hand motion begins

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by wanole

This is how I picture all this. The wrist though would be agaist the plane and not perpendicular till impact, then go back against the plane on the way to finish, but on the other side of the wrist.


Do I have this all wrong?

No. You are correct, if I am reading it right. . Martee explained it well above me.

I think neophytes see the uncocking of acc#2 happening at that perpendicular position- like hammering a nail into the ground, when the hammer action is really the clubface slamming a nail into a side wall. Thats impact. It is a wonderful thing when the Flying Wedges gives it up to Centrifugal Force.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by wanole

Hey 6Bee..Glad to see you post. How are you playing?

I'm hitting those little plastic balls well. LOL The snow is gone- I'm heading to Williamsburg this weekend with the guys. Royal New Kent, Tom Doak's Riverfront and Kiskiack. I can't wait. Swinging the longs and Hitting the shorts. Taking divots and leaving my mark. hahaha

 

[EdZ]

Enjoy 6B, drop me a PM if you need a fourth..... Kiskiack is a fun one, a shotmaker's course, fairly narrow. Not too tough if the wind is down, but windy from the tips it will keep you on your toes.

Check out Colonial if you get a chance, another good one from the tips. I haven't played Royal New Kent yet, but I have played Stonehouse. It is 'interesting', nearly every shot is blind and some of the greens need windmills on them. From what I've heard RNK is the better track, more of a links course. Bring your raingear, it is a bit wet around here right now.

 

[LSH]

I have read some swing tips that suggested to get distance and control in ball striking you should rotate the forearms on the back and through swing.
Is this the the same thing as roll and swivel?