the table drill, your view?

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EdZ

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OK.... so if you put your lead forearm on a table (aka the plane in a swing) with your thumb up, just curious how people on this board view forearm rotation:

it either

a) stays in the same relationship, and the 'lower bone' and 'upper bone' remain in line, as the lower bone slides on the table (back of had stays 90 degrees)

OR

b) the upper bone rotates around the lower bone, to palm down in the 'backswing' to palm up in the 'forward' swing


OR

c) the 'lower' bone rotates around the upper bone (i.e. counterclockwise, and the palm is up to down
 
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Martee

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Ed I am not sure I get what you are going after. If you mean for use to lay our arm on a table and make the movement as if we were swinging or what?

I would describe you 'B' as a a turn on the back stroke and roll on the down stroke (i.e. TGM definitions)

For my swing it would be a modified 'A'. I actually roll (tightening of the last three fingers of the lead hand) as the club start back, but do nothing on the down stroke for normal shots.

For a speciality shots I have been known to have some arm rotation, usually only in the downstroke and it is complete before impact.

Post impact I have done what may be referred to as a swivel for some shots which involves some arm rotation.
 
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EdZ

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yes, as in a swing Martee... I'm trying to help people understand that the forearm must rotate
 
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Martee

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Ed I have a problem with the description now that you answered my question.

First off rotation of the forearm can happen two ways:
a. Rotation of the hand/wrist and forearm will rotate up to the elbow. This motion is inititate by the hand/wrist.

b. Rotation of the arm,where as one unit, the upper arm, lower arm (forearm), wrist, hand, etc. are one rigid unit. This motion of turning originate at the arm pit.

Too, too many people continue to discuss forearm rotation and are confused or don't understand the difference.

Also the reference of the palm to the ground is misleading cause the swing plane angle can effect the visual results. The same with the club position. Most golfer rely on a shoulder plane angle at the top, reference to this plane might be more accurate.

All I know and understand is that if I rotate the be it arm or hand on the back stroke, I must rotate on the down stroke so that prior to impact I am back at vertical.

Any rotation, opening, closing of the clubface during the impact interval is a function of the pivot motion.

Those that advocate rotating the club through the impact interval are advocating a highly difficult timing effort.

JMO.
 
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EdZ

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the palm to ground was specific to the table example... I understand your view, but if you do it that way, you must be exactly 'on' and can falter either way (rotate open, or closed) - allowing 'some' rotation ensures you 'know' that the club is coming from open to closed (same logic as hitting a draw or a fade being more predictable than trying to always hit a dead straight shot.

Also, the swinging force and pivot is what 'times' it, not player effort in the hands, there is no 'hit'...
 
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EdZ

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I don't have a problem with it, to the extent that I know that will stop people from a bad slice, but it seems to me that you are just trading for a pull hook. It's a good step along the road, but I would simply give someone a large hammer, let them feel right hand only swings, right wrist back, do the same with the left hand, flat left, teach them about the guide of the left thumb, and the flat left/bent right. As I said in another post, I DO like the through swing feel that the 'twist' gives, just not a big fan of teaching that much of a closed position going back. Just my preference, just a different road to get to the same place.
 
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ragman

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quote:Originally posted by EdZ

I don't have a problem with it, to the extent that I know that will stop people from a bad slice, but it seems to me that you are just trading for a pull hook. It's a good step along the road, but I would simply give someone a large hammer, let them feel right hand only swings, right wrist back, do the same with the left hand, flat left, teach them about the guide of the left thumb, and the flat left/bent right. As I said in another post, I DO like the through swing feel that the 'twist' gives, just not a big fan of teaching that much of a closed position going back. Just my preference, just a different road to get to the same place.
Click to expand...
WHY would you teach it "your" way?
 
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ragman

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quote:Originally posted by EdZ

why wouldn't "I" teach things "my" way?
Click to expand...
Let me put it this way: WHY is "YOUR" way better than Manzella's?

Manzella's lessons (articles) are done in sequence.

Slicers should hit hooks for a purpose. They say all great players have hit a hook on the way to a great swing...

It is easier to learn how to lag the clubhead when you don't have to worry about squaring up the clubface.

Again, why is 'YOUR' way better?
 
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EdZ

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I never said my approach was better, nor do I think Brian's is better, just a different way to get to the same place. A closed to open 'feel' doesn't always help, but ALL players must know the 'feel' of open/square to closed, through the ball - i.e. - the forearm rotation, and not a 'block' move that can result from trying to get too closed to open, too much 'twist', and a pull hook.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ed...

How do you miss the point.

I teach a TOTALLY NORMAL top of the backswing position to S L I C E R S...

look LOOK looK at the pictures ;)!
 
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EdZ

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I didn't miss the point.... I don't disagree with your top of swing position, just how you got there. When you force your hands (forearm twist) into that closed a position (clubface pointing away at halfway back), they tend to do the reverse and open too much coming down (block move). For those that can actually 'hold' that twist, they will tend to hit a pull hook, which as I said before, isn't bad as a way to get to the right feel, as long as you understand the tendency (which I know 'you' do, but people reading the article may not).

I'd rather see people focus on the right palm feeling like it traces the inside 'rim' of the wheel, the plane, rather than the 'twist' going back. Bend that right wrist back, and let your palm ride the rim. More of a left wrist turning 'under' to get there, not a forearm twist. Feel like you drag the knuckles on the ground, or like the part of your fingers where you would wear a ring is dragging on the ground, ridding that 'rim'.

This is basically Dante's move... how do you feel that yours differs from his view, or is better?
 
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denny

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They won't hook if they have what Homer refers to as rhythm .....also known as ... (conservation of angular momentum) ........(endless belt effect)..(enough forward lean) in other words where shaft passes left arm. Oh as long as shaft is on plane and club face matches left hand.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ed...what I am saying is this:

In the REAL WORLD of teaching golf to make a living while trying to become world-famous, my way (in the article) works best.

By a LONG LONG long margin.

How can I be so sure.....?

Because I (me) BrianM, tried ALL the other ways TOO, on REAL GOLFERS.

;)
 
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EdZ

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quote:Originally posted by denny

They won't hook if they have what Homer refers to as rhythm .....also known as ... (conservation of angular momentum) ........(endless belt effect)..(enough forward lean) in other words where shaft passes left arm. Oh as long as shaft is on plane and club face matches left hand.
Click to expand...


Sounds like Dante to me.... Brian, what do you agree/disagree with in 4 magic moves?
 
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