Thoughts on my swing (8 iron & driver)?

[kevin_79]

Here's my background:
I play to an 11.5 and accuracy into greens is my biggest problem (I average ~5 GIRs and rely way too much on my short game to save par). My game has regressed to the point where I address the ball and have no clue whether my shot will go left, right, or straight (left more than right, and right more than straight). I find a way to either pull-hook or push-fade without feeling any difference in my swing; so my dispersions can be pretty wide. Club face contact is usually near the sweet spot but when I miss on the face, I miss towards the toe. Distances: 8-iron carry is about 160; driver is usually 270 - 290.

I've been working a lot on the SD pattern since experimenting with a one-plane swing for about a year (before I found this site). Lately, I've been trying to focus on starting with "no popout" and ending with "one last point" at the finish. I'm thinking my inconsistencies are partly on going too hard at the ball and loosing control of the clubface; but when I try to ease up, I hit a lot of fat shots and thin swipes.

Driver - Face On
Driver - DTL

8-iron - Face On
8-iron - DTL

Thanks for looking!
Kevin

 

[softconsult]

My impression is that you are doing the fix your own swing thing. I think you need to buy some
professional eyes to sort this out. I can relate to certain issues in your swing.

I am also tall and flexible (less so than I was at your age). I can get into overdoing the backswing
like you do. The open clubface at the top was something Brian picked up on right away. When I saw
Michael Jacobs we spent the whole lesson on trying to get me to be less steep coming down. I wasn't
bobbing up and down, but I was aimed left had a too narrow stance. Your hips appear to be closed relative to
your shoulder line. Part of it was toning down the backswing and part was simply sequencing. You do not need to swing that 8 iron that far around. When you get the hands dropping into a more shallow approach this whole thing gets much easier.

To my eye, the biggest flaw you have going on is all that dipping, and jumping up. On the backswing it looks
like you lock, or close to it, your right knee. Downswing you massively dive your upper body down at the ball.
Club is cast out and over. You then sense you are going to bury the club in the ground and jump up to save it, or so it appears. Fats and thins? You bet.

You have to figure out how to stay more level.

 

[Matt 4-L]

Lots of nice things going on Kevin, the two things that jump out at me is that your stance is very narrow and secondly you need a touch more hip slide at the start of the downswing, overall I think you could have a very dynamic swing with a few tweaks.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I agree with Matt.

 

[golfie]

This is an aggressive swing. Both heels WAY off the ground.

I'd say there's a hand path that is too far out in the downswing which necessitates the massive jump up and back. This is in turn coupled with a flip. Although clubface at the top does not appear too open. Perhaps it opens a bit on the downswing.

I think that maintaining some twist in the downswing may be be the first step in solving some of the other issues.

 

[kevin_79]

My impression is that you are doing the fix your own swing thing. I think you need to buy some professional eyes to sort this out. I can relate to certain issues in your swing.

Yup, totally agree. I fool myself into thinking I can watch/read then apply, but typically suffer from info-overload or doing the wrong things. I've dropped the hint to my wife that we should take a trip down to NO or Louisville this winter!

To my eye, the biggest flaw you have going on is all that dipping, and jumping up.

I was shocked to see this on video. I had no clue...I don't feel that in my swing. My co-worker (who's not a golfer) looked at my face-on driver swing this morning and his only comment was "good thing you tie your shoes tight".

You have to figure out how to stay more level.

Any good drills to work on this when I'm alone at the range? If I was with someone, maybe the "hold a club by your head" trick?

Lots of nice things going on Kevin, the two things that jump out at me is that your stance is very narrow and secondly you need a touch more hip slide at the start of the downswing, overall I think you could have a very dynamic swing with a few tweaks.

Thanks Matt; I was really wide in my stance with the one-plane setup I was toying w/ before I found Brian's patterns. Guess I shrunk it too much now. I'll chew on the hip-slide idea too...maybe I can find a way to do that so I also get more weight on my left heel.

 

[kevin_79]

I think that maintaining some twist in the downswing may be be the first step in solving some of the other issues.

Golfie, Do you mean twist as in twistaway or torso twist or something else?

 

[golfie]

Golfie, Do you mean twist as in twistaway or torso twist or something else?

Yes. Twist as in twistaway.

BTW would not be surprised if you hit some major fat shots the first few swings if you do this. It is likely that your "computer" will not let you jump quite as high to avoid a major pull hook.

 

[savydan]

Frankly, I think the best thing you could do is widen your stance and see how it effects your pivot.

You start your swing with a shoulder to ankle "pivot" like you are standing on a turntable. Widen the stance, firm up the lower body (probably will feel like it doesn't even move at first) and ROTATE your upper body as if it's the only thing moving. 3/4 swing, 3/4 speed and you'll kill it.

 

[softconsult]

Kevin, great responses. I used to draw lines over on SwingAcademy, but finally got fed up with 5% idiot factor and exited stage right.

I'm no drill expert, but finding a buddy to watch would help. The camera can also work.
Problem for me is having the patience to watch it out on the range and try to make corrections.
This feel versus real thing at least 100 years old. Over the years, I have had a few buddies that were
somewhat knowledgeable and jointly anal enough to participate in practice improvement.
The line was something like this. "I felt like that was parallel." response, "Are you kidding? You were way past parallel!" or "Why are you aimed 40 yards left of the target." You just can't see yourself.

I would be cautious about trying to implement all the tips. Seems to me that first you need to figure out a basic, like how to stop dipping, or how to get the hips slide forward, etc. The wider stance can help tone down the
backswing. At the same time you could really work on say hitting 3/4 8 irons say, 125 with a less aggressive overall swing. Hit it with less arm swing going back and just a nice pivot going through. It is hard to improve if every swing is full power. My iron with an 8 on it goes 150 on the spot, but I can throttle it back.

Good luck, and I think you will agree, it's nice having all that leverage.

 

[savydan]

Two words: Leg work.

The downswing is an EFFECT of:

narrow stance
locked right knee
weight on the outside of the right foot
dangling left leg - nowhere near ready to provide support

No one can recover from there.

 

[golfie]

Would also like to see a bit less of a move off the ball in the backswing. The Downswing dip appears to be left sided compression necessary to get you left enough after the transition to hit the ball.

 

[kevin_79]

Thanks guys, this is all great input. I can't wait to get back to the range and start to tinker with these suggestions.

While doing an "air golf" swing with my brain tuned into my right knee, I definitely feel my knee cap push back into my leg and lock up like a board. It's amazing what you guys can pinpoint on video!

Glad you brought this to my attention -- and it triggered the realization that I often feel right knee pain when climbing the clubhouse stairs after walking 18. Bet the knee lock is contributing big-time there.

...
dangling left leg...

I love that description!

 

[TeddyIrons]

I like softconsult's analysis. I suffer a similar dip through transition which in my case I think is caused by lifting in the backswing. I find the counterfall move through transition a help where I feel the weight going towards my heels. It feels like I'm falling backwards until I see myself on video where there's no dipping, there's just rotation. This may help, perhaps it's worth looking into. BTW, I hope you ignore the advice being given to you on swingacademy for those swings!

 

[kevin_79]

I like softconsult's analysis. I suffer a similar dip through transition which in my case I think is caused by lifting in the backswing. I find the counterfall move through transition a help where I feel the weight going towards my heels. It feels like I'm falling backwards until I see myself on video where there's no dipping, there's just rotation. This may help, perhaps it's worth looking into.

That's encouraging to me; thanks for sharing your perspective on the "feel" vs. "real".

BTW, I hope you ignore the advice being given to you on swingacademy for those swings!

Yes, agree...I only I posted the vids there because I don't have a Youtube account and I liked that the video player has speed control.

 

[Mike O]

The best advice so far is to throttle back your "accuracy" clubs. Doesn't surprise me that you can't hit a green - when you swing the 8 iron like a driver. The better you are the better you learn to have different swings for different shots- their not all the same. Secondly, learn to hit down on top of the ball with the clubface - instead of hitting under the ball and up. Head movement, hip movement, etc. are all effects and a waste of time to directly focus on.

 

[Matt 4-L]

The best advice so far is to throttle back your "accuracy" clubs. Doesn't surprise me that you can't hit a green - when you swing the 8 iron like a driver. The better you are the better you learn to have different swings for different shots- their not all the same. Secondly, learn to hit down on top of the ball with the clubface - instead of hitting under the ball and up. Head movement, hip movement, etc. are all effects and a waste of time to directly focus on.

I have to disagree with you on the hip movement Mike, the movement of the hips is very important and I believe to be one of the keys to a good pivot. If you let the hips "bump out" on the backswing and lose the angle of your back leg, you are dead, very hard to have a repeating swing if you allow that to happen. Also, if you don't start the downswing with the correct hip action it makes it very difficult to again be consistent. My swing thoughts always focus on my hips, if I get my hips correct everything else falls into place.

I do agree with throttle back for accuracy, 3/4 swings are definately the way to go for scoring clubs.

 

[kevin_79]

Progress Update

Thanks to all for the constructive feedback and suggestions. I practiced for about 3 hours last night (unfortunately I left my camera battery at home so no new vids) and today shot 83 on a par 72, 70.8/121 course. Had 9 GIRs so good improvement there; two OB drives led to a double and a triple but otherwise an OK round for me. Ball flight was good, misses were predominately left instead of left/right mix.

Here's what I've done so far:
Stance about a foot's width wider than I had previously for each club. Trying to feel more knee flex, hands to about shoulder height (3/4ish), almost dead quite lower body on the backswing, and a hip move left, slightly up (for better axis tilt), and also back towards my left heel to start the downswing. To help the 3/4 swing, I played one more club than I had been for given distances.

Previously, throttling back would result in fats and thins -- today only 2 fat shots. As a guess, I think these changes are helping to improve my sequencing and thus allowing me to hit decent when I remove the aggressive upper-body compensations to get back to the ball. As another guess, I think the dip-n-jump is a chain of events that can be traced back to locking the right knee on the backswing. When I keep the knee flexed, I feel much more stable through impact.

Need more practice, but feeling really confident now. Thanks a ton!

 

[Mike O]

To help the 3/4 swing, I played one more club than I had been for given distances.!

That's the right approach.

Also, if you have benefited from some advice here and you haven't previously supported Brian - such as purchasing a DVD or in some other manner - then you'd want to put in the back of your brain - to show some support in someway - down the road - when it would also benefit you. Afterall, the "Manzella Academy" makes their money from golf instruction - so I'm not a great fan of using a website like this to get free swing advice - essentially bypassing the "company". Don't take that the wrong way- you seem like a nice guy Kevin with good intentions- just a piece of information that you may already have considered.

 

[kevin_79]

That's the right approach.

Also, if you have benefited from some advice here and you haven't previously supported Brian - such as purchasing a DVD or in some other manner - then you'd want to put in the back of your brain - to show some support in someway - down the road - when it would also benefit you. Afterall, the "Manzella Academy" makes their money from golf instruction - so I'm not a great fan of using a website like this to get free swing advice - essentially bypassing the "company". Don't take that the wrong way- you seem like a nice guy Kevin with good intentions- just a piece of information that you may already have considered.

Yup, totally agree. I've purchased all of Brian's videos and have digested them and accompanying threads on this forum dilligently for several months before deciding to join and ask for some guidance in my struggles to apply what I've been reading/watching/hearing.

I would enjoy getting with an instructor who believes in the "Manzella Matrix" philosophy -- but I can't easily travel to far-off locations for a golf lesson. I've been through way too many instructors, locally, that have taken me down way too many different golf swing methods and I'm pretty burned out on it. I value the no-nonsense approach here; hopefully some day I'll be knowledgeable enough to be able to "give back" to the community not only through paid lessons with someone here, but also by contributing thoughtful dialog and assistance, too.

If there's someone out there in the Seattle area, I'd love to meet them -- I think I'll post another thread asking for recommendations to instructors up here.