Tiger's Injury, too much snap in the kinetic chain? (Baloney!)

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Tball88

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I know we had a lot of talk recently about snapping the kinetic chain, by posting up on a firm left side. I was just thinking that Tiger's recent injuries, is this an example of the downside of creating too much snap.

I wonder if he continued the lower body pivot a little or opened his left foot some more would he have avoided the injury.
 
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dbl

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While I don't have a firm handle on the snapping the kinetic chain idea, I do not think the torque on his knee and the violent leg snap has much to do with a kinetic chain snap. Thoe leg/knee actions were a Tiger choice, but I think he could have used other positions and actions in his pattern to compress the ball.
 
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shootin4par

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My opinion would be inefeicient kinetic chain sequencing. Snead, Austin, Ochoa all have more effecient kinetic chain sequencing in their golf swing from my very limited perspective. And they all cross the line at the top as well. It seems that those who cross the line at the top tend to have shorter follow throughs and the more laid off you are the longer the follow through. But then again I have not looked into it enough to be an expert.
just thoughts
Neil
 
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spktho

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My understanding of Tiger's injury is that he tore his ACL while jogging. The instability from the torn ACL caused the cartilage to wear more. I don't think his knee injury stems from his swing. But, his swing aggravates the injury. Depending on how much scar tissue there is in his knee, when he gets the ACL repaired and the strength back in the left leg, he should be back pretty much to normal.
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

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Tiger needs Ernie Els old old swing! Ernie needs his old swing...

He's had three surgeries in 5 years on his left knee, and a benign tumor removed from the same knee in 1994.

His swing changes haven't protected his body.
 
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Tball88

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The ACL, I agree was due to jogging, however, I'm only guessing, but I would assume the stress fractures are due to the stress he's putting on the left leg when he torques.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
in the article I read the stress fractures occurred while rehabbing his knee after this most recent surgery. They didnt specify how though.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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self-mastery said:
He's had three surgeries in 5 years on his left knee, and a benign tumor removed from the same knee in 1994.
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???Tumor???

...

BTW did I not recently hear something about E. Woods hurting himself with a fist-pump? (eeeek)
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

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birdie_man said:
...

BTW did I not recently hear something about E. Woods hurting himself with a fist-pump? (eeeek)
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BM, I've always believed that the fist pump was dangerous. I prefer the Michelle Wie 'fast wave' because it shows just the right amount of joy without the risk of injury.


Wie's FAST WAVE:

images
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
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Ba-loney!

I love the fact that I have chosen a profession where, basically, so many people in high profile media positions, don't have ANY IDEA what the heck they are talking about.

Tiger Woods' ACL problem has NOTHING to do with his left leg action. I doubt if he hurt it just "jogging" either. He stepped in a hole, or something like that.

There are 100's of golfers (yes hundreds) who have as much or more clubhead speed then Tiger, snap their left leg and their kinetic chains MORE than Tiger, and have ZERO damage to their knees.

Rick Rielly, who some of time I like what he says, wondered if "Tiger will ever be Tiger again?"

Please.

Tiger won a US-friggin-Open with a RUPTURED ACL—swinging like "Tiger." He'll be better than ever, left leg golf-wise.

Mike Finney, our great friend and colleague, has had BOTH knees completely reconstructed. He never had the time, money, or want to to rehab perfectly. He swings similar to Tiger as far as the left knee goes. No problem.

Tiger, who will rehab with a custom made machine if need be, will not lose any leg girth, and will probably pick up speed from when he played WITHOUT an intact ACL.

The folks who teach some other kind of leg action, Tiger haters, and just strictly unknowledgeable commentator have made me ill just listening to them.

Why they just don't call me, and get the answer.

Tiger will be fine. Mark it down. ;)
 
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spktho

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I agree. The knee will be fine with his swing. The ACL limits or prevents excessive motion of the tibia(lower leg bone) going anterior (forward) from the femur(the upper thigh bone). He probably did tear the ACL by stepping in a hole or something more than just jogging. I tore my left ACL playing baseball 20 years ago by getting my cleats stuck while fielding and throwing a ball on the run. I went on to play 4 years of college ball after surgery to repair it and rehab. The repaired knee and leg is still stronger and feels more stable than the right knee.

Tiger, I'm sure, has the best orthopedic surgeons and physical therapists at his disposal to ensure that he will come back stronger and in better condition than before the surgery.
 
FloydPT38

FloydPT38

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Now, the surgeries may cause more arthritis that affects him in 20-30 years. So you may see a repeat performance at the 2028 open. In which case he'll get a total knee and be back on the course. And as Brian has written a few times, Mike F did well after his knee replacements. Most of the people I see do better (play better) after a total knee because they're not hurting. And regular joes usually do great after an ACL recon much less premier Athletes.
I don't know that anything physical is going to get Tiger. When his knee bothers him in the future he'll hit a stray shot but it will probably be a hiccup. Again, if you can win with a torn ACL, swinging like he does, which I put up there with Hogan at the 53 open, then he's not going to be affected by too much going on in the physical realm. He'll need to get bored with golf or have the next Jack,Tiger,___________ to compete with him.
I doubt we'll really know how he tore his ACL until he writes his memoirs when he's 80.
 
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Chris Sturgess

New member
Tball88 said:
The ACL, I agree was due to jogging, however, I'm only guessing, but I would assume the stress fractures are due to the stress he's putting on the left leg when he torques.
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There is basically a zero percent chance Tiger tore his ACL jogging. Because it's impossible to tear an ACL while just jogging normally. As Floyd can attest, ACL tears come from 2 things: twisting of the knee, and hyperextension of the knee. Neither of which occur while jogging normally. Maybe he stepped in a hole and hyperextended his knee to tear it, or maybe he was twisting while running like spk did while throwing baseball on the run. But just jogging as the explanation is bs. However a stress fracture can come from just jogging if the person jogs a lot and on hard surfaces.

So since ACL tears come from twisting and hyperextension it would be ignorant to pretend that those aren't the same things that happen in the left knee while coming through impact. Tiger snaps and torques his left knee as hard as anybody in his swing, that is obvious. But before Brian starts getting all hyped up since I am disagreeing with him I should mention that I haven't even gotten to my real point. That point being that I think Tiger's injury is largely due to his efforts to keep his left leg planted on the ground through impact in the recent years with Hank Haney. It's the same issue with spk's cleats being stuck in the ground while twisting, that solidifies the torque and rips the knee up. But if his cleats had come off the ground he would have been fine because the leg would just be twisting freely in air. So the same thing with Tiger, when his left foot gets airborne and replants at a different angle, like it has historically done on drives (and is what he was doing in this recent US Open to protect his knee as much as possible) there are less sheer forces on the knee. So in summary my point is, if you are going to snap your kinetic chain super hard like Tiger does then don't try to keep your foot solidly planted to the ground unless you want to risk knee injury.
 
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puttmad

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Nice one Chris,
I've always ben a strong advocate of a narrow stance and toe drag (right foot) and left foot angled at least 45 degrees towards the target at address (hopefully to prevent the above, I'm getting on a bit now....:))....
 
FloydPT38

FloydPT38

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Will have to think about this a bit more

twisting of the knee, and hyperextension of the knee certainly cause ACL tears but I don't know that even in a Tiger swing you would get the ranges needed to tear the ACL- The hyperextension needs to be along the lines of 10 degrees - more than just snapping your knee back- same with the rotation component.

for a cool hyperextension picture
http://www.aclstudygroup.com/ACLFinal/mechanism_of_injury.htm

Usually with an ACL tear it's a specific event with a "pop", the usual method of injury is not a gradual occurrence from cumulative trauma.

Chris Sturgess said:
That point being that I think Tiger's injury is largely due to his efforts to keep his left leg planted on the ground through impact in the recent years with Hank Haney.
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Could repeated trauma weaken the ligament or surrounding tissue and make it more susceptible to trauma? perhaps.. but I don't believe he tore his ACL with any kind of golf swing.

Does keeping your left leg planted on the ground through impact stress the knee more?- It does put more stress on the left leg than not keeping it planted. Whether it was excessive stress depends also on the motion and strength in his ankle and hips.

CG
 
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puttmad

New
FloydPT38 said:
Will have to think about this a bit more

twisting of the knee, and hyperextension of the knee certainly cause ACL tears but I don't know that even in a Tiger swing you would get the ranges needed to tear the ACL- The hyperextension needs to be along the lines of 10 degrees - more than just snapping your knee back- same with the rotation component.

for a cool hyperextension picture
http://www.aclstudygroup.com/ACLFinal/mechanism_of_injury.htm

Usually with an ACL tear it's a specific event with a "pop", the usual method of injury is not a gradual occurrence from cumulative trauma.




Could repeated trauma weaken the ligament or surrounding tissue and make it more susceptible to trauma? perhaps.. but I don't believe he tore his ACL with any kind of golf swing.

Does keeping your left leg planted on the ground through impact stress the knee more?- It does put more stress on the left leg than not keeping it planted. Whether it was excessive stress depends also on the motion and strength in his ankle and hips.

CG
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Don't forget Tiger used to have both heels off the deck when he was going for it with the driver...
 
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MrMichael

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I figured Tiger tore his ACL in his workouts/rehab. I would imagine he does some sort of plyometrics, speed and agility training.
 
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