Torques on the shaft and Speed

[spktho]

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I think what it confirmed to me is that in order to create speed, you had better get some body parts out of line with each other and off plane....this is what we "grab onto" to create speed....

These two posts are obviously connected. My questions are how would the graph look for the two main different swing types of the Sergio, Fowler swing compared to the Bubba, Nicklaus swing? Is there a trade off especially between alpha and beta torques? Meaning if you do more beta, then the alpha decreases? and similarly if you do more alpha, then beta decreases?

I know there are other factors involved especially with the pivot, but it seems the Bubba and Nicklaus type swing creates more speed. I can grasp the out of line and off plane parts with respect to the Sergio and Fowler type swing, but am having trouble identifying parts out of line or off plane with the Bubba and Nicklaus type swing.

I think I have got the more vertical handpath with tumble down pretty good, but have lost some clubhead speed in the process. So, I think I have actually lost some alpha torque in the process (pivot less too, but that's a different subject). But, when trying to add more alpha, it seems the amount of reverse tumble(negative beta) decreases so then tumbling(positive beta) is also affected.

Any thoughts on these relationships?

 

[gmbtempe]

Interesting questions.

Would this give more credence to a plane shift during the downswing since that would create and out of line condition?

 

[JEREMY5577]

So if you maxed out positive beta torque you would be off plane and over the top. Seems to me that the art of maxing out beta torque while staying on plane causes the body to react. Meaning the more beta you can apply with out going over the plane makes the hands move really fast. And I think maximum alpha would occur when doing so. Just the way I see it.

 

[spktho]

So if you maxed out positive beta torque you would be off plane and over the top. Seems to me that the art of maxing out beta torque while staying on plane causes the body to react. Meaning the more beta you can apply with out going over the plane makes the hands move really fast. And I think maximum alpha would occur when doing so. Just the way I see it.

I think I see what you're saying. And the graph seems to show that too. The positive alpha actually starts after the positive beta.

Would the Nicklaus/Bubba type swing be similar or would they have positive alpha before positive beta?

 

[natep]

Good questions.

I think your general observations are correct.

How many long drive guys do you see with a Sergio type move as opposed to a Bubba or Nicklaus type swing?

But, those guys are across the line, so they also have something to pull against, it's just the opposite off-plane condition.

It would certainly be interesting to see what differences might show up if we could see their 'torque graphs'.

 

[Brian Manzella]

These two posts are obviously connected. My questions are how would the graph look for the two main different swing types of the Sergio, Fowler swing compared to the Bubba, Nicklaus swing? Is there a trade off especially between alpha and beta torques? Meaning if you do more beta, then the alpha decreases? and similarly if you do more alpha, then beta decreases?

I know there are other factors involved especially with the pivot, but it seems the Bubba and Nicklaus type swing creates more speed. I can grasp the out of line and off plane parts with respect to the Sergio and Fowler type swing, but am having trouble identifying parts out of line or off plane with the Bubba and Nicklaus type swing.

I think I have got the more vertical handpath with tumble down pretty good, but have lost some clubhead speed in the process. So, I think I have actually lost some alpha torque in the process (pivot less too, but that's a different subject). But, when trying to add more alpha, it seems the amount of reverse tumble(negative beta) decreases so then tumbling(positive beta) is also affected.

Any thoughts on these relationships?

What about the negative alpha?

 

[natep]

Some people do look like they swing straight back and straight through without anything much 'off-plane' to pull against.

Sorta like this:

 

[JEREMY5577]

What about the negative alpha?

Haven't thought much about negative alpha. Seems to stay negative until around left arm last parallel on ds before becoming positive. Would like to know more

 

[natep]

I think he means the negative alpha just before impact.

In other words, pushing backwards on the top of the grip (away from the target) through the ball.

I've been playing around with it since he posted about it a while back, it puts a significant zip on the ball, especially if you're like me and were just basically pulling through impact.

 

[JEREMY5577]

I think he means the negative alpha just before impact.

In other words, pushing backwards on the top of the grip (away from the target) through the ball.

I've been playing around with it since he posted about it a while back, it puts a significant zip on the ball, especially if you're like me and were just basically pulling through impact.

So after the right hand passes under the left it becomes negative alpha again? Sorry i should know this

 

[Brian Manzella]

Just after last parallel pre-impact.

 

[spktho]

What about the negative alpha?

Just after last parallel pre-impact.

Ya, it drops pretty significantly in the graph, huh. Could definitely be where the few mph's have disappeared.

Handle dragging to some extent, then. I'm trying to use the left hand as the major influence for positive beta by pulling inward toward my body while the right is still pushing forward.

The hands have to be pretty far forward at shaft last parallel so as to not release too early, then is the negative alpha best applied with the left hand up and back instead of the inward for the beta--more likely a combination?

Best to really get the neg. beta/pos. beta down before working on the negative alpha?

 

[Brian Manzella]

The tumble turns into the negative alpha.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Tumble can turn into positive gamma also, right?

 

[spktho]

Good questions.

I think your general observations are correct.

How many long drive guys do you see with a Sergio type move as opposed to a Bubba or Nicklaus type swing?

But, those guys are across the line, so they also have something to pull against, it's just the opposite off-plane condition.

It would certainly be interesting to see what differences might show up if we could see their 'torque graphs'.

I'm sure they are still doing all the torques, just to a different magnitude. I know my accuracy has improved tremendously with the hand path and torque changes the last month or so. Was just hoping to gain some speed also.


Thanks, have some more pieces of the puzzle to try and put in.

 

[mjstrong]

I'm sure they are still doing all the torques, just to a different magnitude. I know my accuracy has improved tremendously with the hand path and torque changes the last month or so. Was just hoping to gain some speed also.

One could argue that those are all you ever need to change...