Considering golf is not played in a vacuum and only 18 times is it played from a flat lie, is there research done on uneven lies. I find that better players have already figured out ways to make a ball above their feet not go left and draw a ball that is severely below their feet. Uphill and downhill lies have to have an affect as well. I know that there are an infinite # of variables involved, but I would be interested to find out if the conventional wisdom of what golf instructors have been teaching their students for 100 years as it pertains to uneven lies (and what the PGA teaches every PGM student every day) holds water or can we blow that up to?
Trackman, the D Plane and uneven lies
- Thread starter ekennedy
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Fine then...here's a theory.
Conventional wisdom suggests that when the ball is above your feet, the swing plane is flattened and therefore promotes more of a draw. But when a player chokes up on the club sufficiently, their swing doesn't necessarily flatten. I'm guessing that the bottom of their swing arc is still at or near their feet level so, whether they like it or not, they will be catching the ball on the downswing and compressing it, something that poorer golfers have trouble with. Better golfers adjust the clubface accordingly and are more able to hit "hold shots" with the ball above their feet.
Conversely, when the ball is severely below a players feet, it is extremely difficult for them to continue their downswing to some imaginary point below the ball and thus they are catching the ball on the forward part of their swing circle. Couple that with the fact that club is clearly not long enough to reach that point (players can choke up, but they can't extend the club), only players with exceptional balance and flexibility would be able to extend their vertical swing 6 or 7 inches below their feet level. Poorer golfers would also have trouble on downhill lies for the exact same reason but do reasonably well on uphill lies.
I guess what I'm saying, is that the ball may go to the right when its below your feet and left when its above your feet for more than just the steepness or flatness of the swing. Or....I'm way off base and the PGA of America is correct for once.
Conventional wisdom suggests that when the ball is above your feet, the swing plane is flattened and therefore promotes more of a draw. But when a player chokes up on the club sufficiently, their swing doesn't necessarily flatten. I'm guessing that the bottom of their swing arc is still at or near their feet level so, whether they like it or not, they will be catching the ball on the downswing and compressing it, something that poorer golfers have trouble with. Better golfers adjust the clubface accordingly and are more able to hit "hold shots" with the ball above their feet.
Conversely, when the ball is severely below a players feet, it is extremely difficult for them to continue their downswing to some imaginary point below the ball and thus they are catching the ball on the forward part of their swing circle. Couple that with the fact that club is clearly not long enough to reach that point (players can choke up, but they can't extend the club), only players with exceptional balance and flexibility would be able to extend their vertical swing 6 or 7 inches below their feet level. Poorer golfers would also have trouble on downhill lies for the exact same reason but do reasonably well on uphill lies.
I guess what I'm saying, is that the ball may go to the right when its below your feet and left when its above your feet for more than just the steepness or flatness of the swing. Or....I'm way off base and the PGA of America is correct for once.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
I have thought about this before too and wondered what the effect of the lie would have on swinging left or right and figuring out aim.
Important question, looking forward to the answers.
Important question, looking forward to the answers.
Jwat
New
Doing this I have hit the ball better than I ever have on uneven lies. Sometimes I hit the ball straighter than on flat lies because I am actually focusing on the correct path.
Ok, I get that. That makes sense. But can I make the same argument that players have difficulty making solid contact for the exact same reasons I stated. Its too big an assumption that players of varying abilities flush the ball off of an uneven lie, especially downhill lies and balls below their feet. Or...its just the lie angle and nothing else. I'm with you either way.
I agree for ball above feet and below the feet that the normal to the face is being affected. For a ball above feet, the top of the Dplane is being more left than you want and so the dplane is tilted to the left and the ball is going to draw. I think unlike Jwat's direction which tries to compensate using path, I believe it would be more correct to fix the face direction...two ways
1) Choke up and try to get a toe down orientation of the club
2) Open the face
Also for Jwat's path fixing method one still has to deal with the tilted face angle, so you'd have to straighten that by opening the face quite a bit...but I will admit that method of 'correcting' is harder for me to think about.
1) Choke up and try to get a toe down orientation of the club
2) Open the face
Also for Jwat's path fixing method one still has to deal with the tilted face angle, so you'd have to straighten that by opening the face quite a bit...but I will admit that method of 'correcting' is harder for me to think about.
Sorry. My question is far more about the difficulty of hitting the bottom of the vertical plane when the ball is below your feet or on a downhill lie, two shots that most golfers struggle with. Unlike when the ball is above your feet and the face points left, the face doesn't really aim right when its below your feet. Its impossible to sole the club so it is still generally pointing toward the target. I disagree with Gerv's point that its plainly the opposite. I think it's slightly more complicated than that.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Growing up in western Pennsylvania i have spent countless hours experimenting with uneven lies. This is one of the few times I throw out Trackman, D-plane and any other science and just go with what works. Ive adjusted stance, weight, forward lean, grip, ball position, aim and everthing else to where i take it case by case (or lie by lie) and just play golf by feel based on experimenting. No easy answers to this one for me. So many different lies.
Either that or im not smart enough to figure it out another way.
Either that or im not smart enough to figure it out another way.
mjstrong
New
I try and take a fairly simple approach, and have found it to serve me quite well while playing:
Ball below feet - I don't need to aim the clubface any differently, like some people advocate, because I am not distorting the top vector of the D-plane at all - it's still aiming at the target. The only real adjustment I make is to take a wider stance, and bend a little more at the knees, in order to lower myself down. I can now make the same swing that I normally would.
Ball above feet - open the face, add more club (to account for the added loft I got when I opened the face), and choke down on the club a little bit. I am still going to swing (path) at the target, since the true clubface (thanks to opening it up) is now pointing at the target again.
Thoughts?
Ball below feet - I don't need to aim the clubface any differently, like some people advocate, because I am not distorting the top vector of the D-plane at all - it's still aiming at the target. The only real adjustment I make is to take a wider stance, and bend a little more at the knees, in order to lower myself down. I can now make the same swing that I normally would.
Ball above feet - open the face, add more club (to account for the added loft I got when I opened the face), and choke down on the club a little bit. I am still going to swing (path) at the target, since the true clubface (thanks to opening it up) is now pointing at the target again.
Thoughts?
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Ball below feet - Aim way left then drop my right foot back so my stance line is in the direction of the hole. Then keep my left shoulder down and hit a straight push to the target.
Ball above feet - grip down, open face, set shaft forward at address. Pick right heel up and keep it up throughout the swing. forward lean and chicken wing through impact to hit it straight.
Ball above feet - grip down, open face, set shaft forward at address. Pick right heel up and keep it up throughout the swing. forward lean and chicken wing through impact to hit it straight.
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