Tradeoff: Impact Conditions vs. Launch Conditions

[mjstrong]

How much of a trade off does everybody think there is between "ideal" impact conditions and "ideal" launch conditions (I suppose specifically with a driver)? I was at one of Callaway's Performance Centre's last week and although I'd heard it all before, it got me thinking more about this. Clubfitters and Tech Reps will talk all day about how the driver needs to be swinging up at the ball (even if it's slight) in order to maximize launch conditions and take advantage of spin rates, etc... However, I believe that a proper swing will have the club hitting slightly down on the ball (bottom of the swing ahead of the ball) in order to achieve proper impact conditions.

So, would it be fair to say that while hitting up on a driver may improve the numbers and lead to more distance, while hitting down on the ball is a more consistent way to swing the club?

I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this one.

 

[Bronco Billy]

How much of a trade off does everybody think there is between "ideal" impact conditions and "ideal" launch conditions (I suppose specifically with a driver)? I was at one of Callaway's Performance Centre's last week and although I'd heard it all before, it got me thinking more about this. Clubfitters and Tech Reps will talk all day about how the driver needs to be swinging up at the ball (even if it's slight) in order to maximize launch conditions and take advantage of spin rates, etc... However, I believe that a proper swing will have the club hitting slightly down on the ball (bottom of the swing ahead of the ball) in order to achieve proper impact conditions.

So, would it be fair to say that while hitting up on a driver may improve the numbers and lead to more distance, while hitting down on the ball is a more consistent way to swing the club?

I'm interested to hear others' thoughts on this one.

I Hope Not....

 

[Bigwill]

People prefer catching the ball on the upswing to get lower spin with a higher launch angle. If hit it better hitting slightly down, try to get fit to a driver that still gives you good launch numbers. I think there was a thread discussing this a while back, too.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I was under the impression that the "upswing" hit with the driver had more to do with the driver's COG lining up with the shaft than anything the golfer did. I try to hit slightly down on my driver and let a properly fitted shaft kick forward.

 

[mjstrong]

Yes, I understand that while our body position may be that of hitting down on the driver, the shaft can work to actually have the clubhead moving up slightly, but that isn't what we're starting to see with the PGA Tour guys' shots in slow motion. We've seen footage of guys like Tiger Woods and Woody Austin having their clubheads continuing downwards after impact with the driver. So, the club is actually working downwards, while the ideal launch conditions would be hitting upwards.

So, is it possible that a shaft can be fitting to an individual that has them hitting down on the ball, but still produces high enough launch angles, with low enough spin, for a clubhead speed of 107-108 mph?

 

[jmessner]

Yes, I understand that while our body position may be that of hitting down on the driver, the shaft can work to actually have the clubhead moving up slightly, but that isn't what we're starting to see with the PGA Tour guys' shots in slow motion. We've seen footage of guys like Tiger Woods and Woody Austin having their clubheads continuing downwards after impact with the driver. So, the club is actually working downwards, while the ideal launch conditions would be hitting upwards.

So, is it possible that a shaft can be fitting to an individual that has them hitting down on the ball, but still produces high enough launch angles, with low enough spin, for a clubhead speed of 107-108 mph?

I guess it would depend on how much you're hitting down. But, for fun I entered some data into a trajectory program for your consideration:

SwingSpeed/Angle of Attack (- is down)/Dynamic Loft/Carry
108/+2/10.5/261
108/-2/10.5/249
108/-2/12.5/252
108/0/10.5/257

A tip weak shaft would increase dynamic loft (and maybe angle of attack slightly but that's debateable) but that increases spin also.

 

[Bigwill]

Do you have the spin numbers for that data set?

 

[mjstrong]

Here's my actual numbers...

Head Speed: 107.5 mph
Ball Speed: 163.3 mph
Back Spin: 2325 rpm
Launch Angle: 10.5 degrees
Side Spin: 28 rpm (right)
Side Angle: 1 degree (right)
Swing path: 5.06 degrees (right)
Angle of Attack: +0.28 degrees
Efficiency: 1.52 (100%)

Now, I was not intending this thread to be a continued fitting for myself, although I would never shun suggestions, but rather I was looking for people's opinions on whether there was a trade off or not between a swing that will give you the most consistent swing positions, and a swing that will give you the most optimum driver launch numbers.

 

[BCGolf]

Clubfitting can only take you so far. The enjoyment of golf for me is to constantly improve my golf fundamentals and conditioning. I try to use equipment that will maximize my swing at that moment.

If I improve my alignments, I may need a diiferent shaft, flex, loft, etc.

Improve your swing, improve equipment, repeat. It is a life long loup.

Looks like you should work on club face and club path alignments.

 

[mjstrong]

Clubfitting can only take you so far. The enjoyment of golf for me is to constantly improve my golf fundamentals and conditioning. I try to use equipment that will maximize my swing at that moment.

If I improve my alignments, I may need a diiferent shaft, flex, loft, etc.

Improve your swing, improve equipment, repeat. It is a life long loup.

Looks like you should work on club face and club path alignments.

Again, this thread isn't about my swing. I can hit the ball pretty straight; BCGolf, 28 rpms of side spin is pretty straight (no visible side movement). But, we digress, I was just asking to see if anybody else here thought that there was a trade off between ideal launch conditions and ideal impact conditions. There are tons of threads about Driver fitting, and none on this pariticular topic, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Oh well...

 

[golfbulldog]

After lowpint.... is it up and in??

If you swing in the fashion that is described by some...the upswing is always combined with the clubface closing ( beyond square) ...but for a straight shot you need clubface square at seperation.....

So how do the Upswinger drivers hit the ball straight??

Maybe club is designed with open face??? or they manipulate the face/swing path???

Maybe...

 

[cmartingolf]

IMHO,

Feel and Real are two different things. Although the club head "may" be moving up the tiniest bit, the club (I'm talking decent striker) is still seeking an inline condition when the ball is struck.

The left shoulder is moving up and back pretty quickly while the left arm swings beyond vertical. The club is still going down with regard to the framework of the body although may be going slightly up when compared to the level of the ground.

I think a word of caution is required here. I see a lot of okay shallow driver swings that have some "up." That motion doesn't bode well when transfering over to the iron game and lets face it, you can drive it great, but you still have to get the ball on the green with precision to play worth a darn.

Here's a happy medium: Learn to hit a driver well off the ground. Whatever tiny bit of "LAUNCH" you might lose, you'll gain in all-around playability.

 

[mjstrong]

IMHO,
I think a word of caution is required here. I see a lot of okay shallow driver swings that have some "up." That motion doesn't bode well when transfering over to the iron game and lets face it, you can drive it great, but you still have to get the ball on the green with precision to play worth a darn.

Here's a happy medium: Learn to hit a driver well off the ground. Whatever tiny bit of "LAUNCH" you might lose, you'll gain in all-around playability.

Thank you cmartin, for addressing the proposed "trade off." I tend to agree with you here. Hitting a driver off the deck is a "test' of mine to see how my impact conditions are. Cheers!

 

[jmessner]

Again, this thread isn't about my swing. I can hit the ball pretty straight; BCGolf, 28 rpms of side spin is pretty straight (no visible side movement). But, we digress, I was just asking to see if anybody else here thought that there was a trade off between ideal launch conditions and ideal impact conditions. There are tons of threads about Driver fitting, and none on this pariticular topic, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Oh well...

Well, I remember when I first started lurking here Brian was of the opinion you should hit down with your driver, and I think as a teacher, he didn't want a student to think about hitting up which might cause a flipping motion. So, while it is true that hitting up will get you maximum distance, that swing thought could lead to problems. So, yes, I think there could be a trade off. However, I think there are things one can do with the pivot and setup to encourage hitting up even with a hitting down feeling but that's more Brian's area.

 

[mjstrong]

Well, I remember when I first started lurking here Brian was of the opinion you should hit down with your driver, and I think as a teacher, he didn't want a student to think about hitting up which might cause a flipping motion. So, while it is true that hitting up will get you maximum distance, that swing thought could lead to problems. So, yes, I think there could be a trade off. However, I think there are things one can do with the pivot and setup to encourage hitting up even with a hitting down feeling but that's more Brian's area.

Valid. But I think the trade off occurs between actually hitting down on the ball or up on the ball, not just the feeling of one of the other. Thanks for your point jmessner.

 

[mjstrong]

If you swing in the fashion that is described by some...the upswing is always combined with the clubface closing ( beyond square) ...but for a straight shot you need clubface square at seperation.....

So how do the Upswinger drivers hit the ball straight??

Maybe club is designed with open face??? or they manipulate the face/swing path???

Maybe...

Exactly, interesting eh? With a forward enough ball position, you could still maintain "efficient" impact conditions while hitting up on the ball, but your clubface would be closed since it has been working up and in.

Maybe we can work on the next "fad" swing technique: Position your driver just like you would a 3 wood (that you're still hitting down on slightly). Tee the ball up higher (since it's going to be more upwards), tee it a little closer to your body (since it'll be more inwards), and aim it right (since the face'll be more closed). Then just make your normal swing and watch it sail to target, with maximum repeatabililty (proper impact conditions) and maximum distance (ideal launch conditions).

How about that??

 

[jmessner]

Head Speed: 107.5 mph
Ball Speed: 163.3 mph
Back Spin: 2325 rpm
Launch Angle: 10.5 degrees
Side Spin: 28 rpm (right)
Side Angle: 1 degree (right)
Swing path: 5.06 degrees (right)
Angle of Attack: +0.28 degrees
Efficiency: 1.52 (100%)

Now, I was not intending this thread to be a continued fitting for myself, although I would never shun suggestions, but rather I was looking for people's opinions on whether there was a trade off or not between a swing that will give you the most consistent swing positions, and a swing that will give you the most optimum driver launch numbers.

So for the question you weren't really asking - these numbers seem a little funny from the launch monitor. The program I was using would indicate from the launch conditions that your clubhead conditions at impact would be:

Clubhead speed: 110.2 mph
Angle of Attack: +3.6
Dynamic Loft (Loft + shaft bend): 7.6

So, the Angle of Attack doesn't match and I assume you weren't using a driver with lower than 7.5 actual loft. I haven't operated launch monitors myself, but I understand that they can sometimes give poor readings if not used or calibrated correctly. But, if the clubhead speed and angle of attack numbers are right, the program says your optimal dynamic loft angle would be around 11 degrees. So, assuming a shaft bend contribution of about 1-1.5 degrees, your optimum loft would be 9.5-10 degrees. FWIW

 

[Brian Manzella]

Up....or Down.

I have rarely hit my Driver better than I did this summer.

I don't have exact stats, but it was about 70% fairways hit, 280 average. That ain't bad for a teacher.

I tried to hit down AND across it.

But, when I am nervous, my out shot is a big high ballon fade where I hit UP on it and cut the dogshizz out of it.

Some of those drives go about 240...but safe. But some of 'em, go really far.

I will ask Dr. Zick at the TGM Summit, and report back.

 

[golfbulldog]

I have rarely hit my Driver better than I did this summer.

I don't have exact stats, but it was about 70% fairways hit, 280 average. That ain't bad for a teacher.

I tried to hit down AND across it.

But, when I am nervous, my out shot is a big high ballon fade where I hit UP on it and cut the dogshizz out of it.

Some of those drives go about 240...but safe. But some of 'em, go really far.

I will ask Dr. Zick at the TGM Summit, and report back.

Brian could you also ask him about putting - strike up or down - i know you feel DOWN is better...but there are so many hi tech guys going around saying hit up on putts and seem to have evidence etc...

Thanks, here ends the thread-jack

 

[puttmad]

Brian could you also ask him about putting - strike up or down - i know you feel DOWN is better...but there are so many hi tech guys going around saying hit up on putts and seem to have evidence etc...

Thanks, here ends the thread-jack

GBD,
Putting topspin on putts is a bit of an illusion...
Take for example a game you probably are familiar with..snooker...
To put pure topspin on the cueball, you have to make contact approximately 3/4 of the way up the ball.....anything below that and you always get skidding before the ball starts roling forwards....
So how do we contact a golf ball 3/4 of the way up?....
Its not really worth worrying about...just get consistent with the "stroke" you are most comfortable with....