True Lag vs. Fake Lag

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cwdlaw223

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Am I correct that the "lag" most talk about during the transition is really fake lag or toe up aspect of the shaft?

If so, where should we look for true lag? After the hands are below the waist or around the 8:00 mark?
 
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spktho

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Doesn't it really all go together though? I mean you could have the "float loader" lag and you can have the long backswing lag like John Daly and then any where in between, but all of those just sets up any lag later in the swing. Sounds like someone trying to coin a term.
 
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cwdlaw223

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It might, hence my question. Not trying to coin a term, but I had that thought as well after the post. Really a question in my mind from the first segment of the second anti summit about the initial lag being toe down and the club equalizing at a later point. If it equalizes, should we be looking at the lag/true lag after this equalization?

I agree that nobody can hold it from the top all the way down but people talk about holding the lag like that all the time without reference to the equalization point.
 
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spktho

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Ahh, now I get what you're saying. That's an interesting question, essentially where is the "lag" most important?

My take is that the initial shaft load being from just the change in direction. I would bet the next load an the club at about half way down is the more important one to determine club head speed.
 
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cwdlaw223

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I agree. What lag is important? Easy to see the first lag (fake???) in transition and equalize out. When is the next lag (true??)? I suspect the toe down accounts for something in true lag. The shaft is flexing and unloading in 3D.
 
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Brian Manzella

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There is NO (as is ZERO) lag in the shaft at the change of direction.

To me "fake WRIST lag" is HOLDING the lag ANYWHERE in the swing.
 
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cwdlaw223

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That's another nugget from the ASII that I thought I learned. Where would the true lag occur? 8:00 mark with the hands in the downswing?
 
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jmessner

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cwdlaw223 said:
That's another nugget from the ASII that I thought I learned. Where would the true lag occur? 8:00 mark with the hands in the downswing?
Click to expand...

I haven't yet seen AS II, but I'm sitting here staring at Sasho MacKensie's thesis paper from 2005 and his model back then shows the max lag to occur with arm around the 7:00 mark (or so) which seems to mark the start of the "release" depending on how you define it.
 
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cwdlaw223

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That's where I got my info from at ASII. I don't think anyone can consciusly do anything at that point. Holding lag doesn't seem possible from the transition.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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If you're a tugger you're bound to have fake lag--fake in the sense that whatever lag you're holding will be transitory because the ensuing loss of width may require a flip.
 
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cwdlaw223

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I wonder if we should even use the term lag anymore since the traditional use of the word is at transition and seeing lag at the 7:00 mark is hard to see. It might be there, but it isn't as noticeable as the fake lag at the top.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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lia41985 said:
If you're a tugger you're bound to have fake lag--fake in the sense that whatever lag you're holding will be transitory because the ensuing loss of width may require a flip.
Click to expand...

I am not smart enough to understand this...is there a video that demonstrates this, cant visualize it.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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Kevin Shields said:
He means......."tugged narrow, jackknifed wide at the bottom"
Click to expand...

and the flip results because the angle of attack is too steep and its the only way to shallow it out or is it a case that the face cannot get square? Is there any pro's that this is an issue for?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
None that come to mind. I'm sure some of done it under pressure though but I doubt any have it as a problem in their regular pattern.
 
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leon

New
cwdlaw223 said:
I wonder if we should even use the term lag anymore since the traditional use of the word is at transition and seeing lag at the 7:00 mark is hard to see. It might be there, but it isn't as noticeable as the fake lag at the top.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I think the idea of lag, as it is traditionally understood, does little to help in learning the ideas stuff (after Brian's recent posts I hesitate to call it the "new release", but I'm not sure this is any better).

I'm becoming more convinced that wrist conditions are key to all of this - not necessarily trying to control them, but understanding and dare I say feeling them (or the clubhead through them). So maybe a better, or more accurate, definition of "lag" would be the amount of right wrist flexion / ulnar deviation at last parallel - just before you start trying to get rid of it all by torqueing the grip.

I guess you'd be hard pushed to get it from video though.
 
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