I've read that the Turned Shoulder Plane is theoretically best because, amoung other things, the trail shoulder supports the shaft. Does that mean the shoulder should continue down the TSP at least as far as impact? If no, when is the shoulder actually providing this extra support? If yes, how can you have the right shoulder and forearm both on the same plane without having a straight arm?
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Turned Shoulder Plane
- Thread starter nevermind
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In TSP swings, the right shoulder should continue downplane through separation. The right shoulder supports PP #3, whether or not the right forearm is EVER on plane. For example David Toms has a very bent right elbow at impact, and his right forearm is pointing well outside the plane line. In order to have the right forearm and shaft line up on plane both before and after impact requires zeroing out #3 Accum and gripping the club in the cup of the right hand along the lifeline.
So are you saying it's more benefitial to have the right shoulder on plane at impact than the right forearm?
Every time I've seen a clip of someone with the shaft on the TSP at impact either their right shoulder or foreaerm has been above plane, allowing for a bent arm. Anyone have any vision where that is not the case?
Every time I've seen a clip of someone with the shaft on the TSP at impact either their right shoulder or foreaerm has been above plane, allowing for a bent arm. Anyone have any vision where that is not the case?
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
In TSP swings, the right shoulder should continue downplane through separation. The right shoulder supports PP #3, whether or not the right forearm is EVER on plane. For example David Toms has a very bent right elbow at impact, and his right forearm is pointing well outside the plane line. In order to have the right forearm and shaft line up on plane both before and after impact requires zeroing out #3 Accum and gripping the club in the cup of the right hand along the lifeline.
The right shoulder travels down plane regardless of what plane the shaft is on.
No, you don't have to grip the club in the cup of your right hand to have the shaft on plane with the elbow and forearm.
Number 3 does not have to be zeroed out.
And, to zero out #3 you would grip it in the cup of the left, uncock the left wrist or vertical hinge.
"The right shoulder travels down plane regardless of what plane the shaft is on."
I didn't say it didn't, in fact I said it does that past separation.
"No, you don't have to grip the club in the cup of your right hand to have the shaft on plane with the elbow and forearm."
At address position, with a right hand finger grip, viewed from down-the-line, the shaft cannot line up with the right forearm, even with #3 zeroed out.
"Number 3 does not have to be zeroed out."
Yes it does in order for the shaft to remain in line with right forearm BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER impact - rather than at just one instance somewhere in the swing, like impact. Hand roll has to be eliminated - #3 Throwout.
"And, to zero out #3 you would grip it in the cup of the left, uncock the left wrist or vertical hinge."
You can zero out #3 with a left hand finger grip.
I didn't say it didn't, in fact I said it does that past separation.
"No, you don't have to grip the club in the cup of your right hand to have the shaft on plane with the elbow and forearm."
At address position, with a right hand finger grip, viewed from down-the-line, the shaft cannot line up with the right forearm, even with #3 zeroed out.
"Number 3 does not have to be zeroed out."
Yes it does in order for the shaft to remain in line with right forearm BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER impact - rather than at just one instance somewhere in the swing, like impact. Hand roll has to be eliminated - #3 Throwout.
"And, to zero out #3 you would grip it in the cup of the left, uncock the left wrist or vertical hinge."
You can zero out #3 with a left hand finger grip.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
At address position, with a right hand finger grip, viewed from down-the-line, the shaft cannot line up with the right forearm, even with #3 zeroed out.
What? Sure it can, and does for most good players. I think you are confusing on plane elbow and right forearm with the shaft going up the middle of the right forearm.
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
Yes it does in order for the shaft to remain in line with right forearm BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER impact - rather than at just one instance somewhere in the swing, like impact. Hand roll has to be eliminated - #3 Throwout.
No.
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
"And, to zero out #3 you would grip it in the cup of the left, uncock the left wrist or vertical hinge."
You can zero out #3 with a left hand finger grip.
That is what I said. Read reply. You can zero out #3 by either:
1.Gripping it in the cup of the left hand
2.Uncocking the left wrist.
3.Vertical hinging.
quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
At address position, with a right hand finger grip, viewed from down-the-line, the shaft cannot line up with the right forearm, even with #3 zeroed out.
What? Sure it can, and does for most good players. I think you are confusing on plane elbow and right forearm with the shaft going up the middle of the right forearm.
Your talking about the shaft visually lining up with the shaft at release point viewed from the rear. Lynn Blake's concept is as I stated and is evident at address.
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
Yes it does in order for the shaft to remain in line with right forearm BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER impact - rather than at just one instance somewhere in the swing, like impact. Hand roll has to be eliminated - #3 Throwout.
No.
In your concept of shaft lining up with right forearm, this alignment ends as soon as hand roll starts.
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
"And, to zero out #3 you would grip it in the cup of the left, uncock the left wrist or vertical hinge."
You can zero out #3 with a left hand finger grip.
That is what I said. Read reply. You can zero out #3 by either:
1.Gripping it in the cup of the left hand
2.Uncocking the left wrist.
3.Vertical hinging.
Ok - I thought you meant all those at once.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
quote:Originally posted by nevermind
So are you saying it's more benefitial to have the right shoulder on plane at impact than the right forearm?
Every time I've seen a clip of someone with the shaft on the TSP at impact either their right shoulder or foreaerm has been above plane, allowing for a bent arm. Anyone have any vision where that is not the case?
It is difficult to tell from a video when the shaft is or isn't on plane because of a thing called parallax (camera distorts things). Unless, you have the plane bisecting the camera lens. Good player on TSP is going to have his shoulder on plane as well. Can't have the elbow on it unless it (right arm) is straight or in a push position, like Nicklaus putting.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
MJ, all I can figure is we are talking about two different things.
Thankyou Tom. So when using the TSP the trail shoulder is on the same plane as the shaft at impact and when using any flatter plane it is the trail forearm that is on the shaft plane. So Homer thought it was more benefitial to have the shoulder supporting the shaft rather than the forearm?
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
He preferred the player to stay on the turned shoulder plane. He thought it was better to not have any plane shift. Benefit of elbow plane: easier to trace the plane line.
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