Turning Sweetspot off the Plane

[kc8kir]

Brian,

After watching a few of your youtube videos, I finally get the idea of how all good players use some amount of twist away to turn the sweetspot off the plane and into the ball for impact. This, for me, has really been the missing ingredient when it comes to hitting solid iron shots, wedges, and fairway woods. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't... when really, I need to be doing it all the time. Now that I understand the why, it's time to address "how" and put it into practice.

Here are the questions:

If it feels really difficult to turn that clubface off the plane coming into impact, should one simply swing slower / easier until it can be reliably accomplished?

Is the amount of power one generates deceptive if you are not turning that sweetspot off the plane correctly... ie... you may swing "easier" to get that sweetspot turned off the plane, but the resulting swingspeed and transfer of energy will be much better than leading the shaft / hosel.

I know PP3 is generally the lag pressure point for sensing the sweetspot, but what about using the twist of the last three fingers in the left hand (swinging right handed)? Is this as effective or is there something else going on?

If I am already having problems swinging too much in-out, will learning to twist that sweetspot off the plane and onto the ball consistently help in straightening path, or just improve face control?

Thanks for the help.

 

[jbrunk]

Brian,

After watching a few of your youtube videos, I finally get the idea of how all good players use some amount of twist away to turn the sweetspot off the plane and into the ball for impact. This, for me, has really been the missing ingredient when it comes to hitting solid iron shots, wedges, and fairway woods. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't... when really, I need to be doing it all the time. Now that I understand the why, it's time to address "how" and put it into practice.

Here are the questions:

If it feels really difficult to turn that clubface off the plane coming into impact, should one simply swing slower / easier until it can be reliably accomplished?

Is the amount of power one generates deceptive if you are not turning that sweetspot off the plane correctly... ie... you may swing "easier" to get that sweetspot turned off the plane, but the resulting swingspeed and transfer of energy will be much better than leading the shaft / hosel.

I know PP3 is generally the lag pressure point for sensing the sweetspot, but what about using the twist of the last three fingers in the left hand (swinging right handed)? Is this as effective or is there something else going on?

If I am already having problems swinging too much in-out, will learning to twist that sweetspot off the plane and onto the ball consistently help in straightening path, or just improve face control?
Thanks for the help.

Not Brian, but I do share some of these experiences. I use a little twist of the last 3 fingers of the left hand on all iron/hybrid swings and it has improved my swing immensely. I do not seem to need it as much with driver and fairway woods. My handicap has dropped 3 shots since May as a result.

I have been amazed at how much face/ss control affects everything else from strike to distance.

 

[savydan]

I feel for you if you have to think about this that much.

Perhaps it would help if you use the idea that clubfaces have a weight bias in them them helps them open during the backswing and close in the downswing.

Perhaps a mind set change to "let" happen instead of "make" happen will help you get to where you want to go.

 

[vjsinger]

Too Flat BS maybe? I don't have to think about twistaway and really never have, but I know some people have to train the feel for a bit. Things really started to change for me when I fixed the BS and transition. Just a thought.

 

[kc8kir]

I sure wish I could "think of it less" but that's just against my nature. I'm all about understanding and controlling it. As someone with very good hand feel from playing piano almost 20 years (probably all that saves me at this point), I really can't just "not think about it".

I can't for the life of me get my plane line back to the left and control the face. My entire swing has gone to crap. Had three rounds a few months ago where I pulled it all together and shot 75. Was hitting the ball extremely straight. Now I'm back to shooting mid 90s and playing military golf.

Yesterday, 9 holes. Shot 47. Yuck. Hit a number of good drives, well shaped to the fairways (draws). Followed them all up with horrible iron shots, some of which barely got airborne. Have slowly gone from taking giant divots to thinning everything. Still way too in-out and shallow. I've even tried making an OTT move... which I've never done... and can't hit at all with.

Practiced a number of drills to stop the in-out, and just can't nail it yet. Placed a board outside the ball, tried not to hit it. Still can't do it.

I'm getting to the point I really just don't know what I'm doing with the golf club in my swing anymore. Even wedges are entirely uncontrollable. Setup, pull the trigger, and ask "What happened?"

Totally desperate.

 

[niblick1]

Just curious - have you ever tried more of a NHA pivot and a NHA2 "shake-the-sugar" move into impact?

 

[kc8kir]

Yes.

I'm trying to shake the sugar... but nothing's coming out.

Been really thinking hard about my iron swing and how to fix it. Something that occurs to me is this. When you setup to the ball, your swing arc is basically centered somewhere above and outside the left shoulder. It occurs to me that unless you somehow drop the radius of that circle into the ground on the downswing, achieving a straight path and post-contact ground impact is impossible without somehow cheating to lengthen the arc (flip, hurl, tilt, lean, fall over).

I'm thinking of trying what I am calling the "crunch". Basically, I am getting this idea from watching video of Byron Nelson and noticing how much he "crunched" down into his impact position. This "crunch" seems to do several things:

1) Drops the club into the slot

2) Enables a more punch position elbow and straight through delivery

3) Reduces forward shaft lean

4) Secures the impact position with a bent right arm / right wrist and flat left wrist (not saying you couldn't flip here, but the position, to me, seems to encourage a solid impact hands alignment)

5) Most importantly, shift the circle of the swing path into the ground.

When you couple this with a slight foward slide (to move the swing lowpoint forward), I think you get a descending blow that is not only aimed properly but also traces a much straighter path (compared to my current underplane, in-out, super-shallow, do whatever it takes method).

I don't know. All the great ballstrikers seem to get shorter into impact, as if they are doing a "crunch". Byron Nelson just really makes it evident.

Am I on the right track with this thinking?

 

[Shot Limit]

Too Flat BS maybe? I don't have to think about twistaway and really never have, but I know some people have to train the feel for a bit. Things really started to change for me when I fixed the BS and transition. Just a thought.

Howd you pull it off VJ? I've been having this weird feeling close to the top, almost like I'm regripping the club before the ds. Strange..... sometimes I have to just start over. Just started happening all of a sudden.

 

[softconsult]

After reading Kc8Cir's last post, I am left with 3 thoughts.

1. I can't imagine that , "When you setup to the ball, your swing arc is basically centered somewhere above and outside the left shoulder. " is correct. Think BM goes into great detail about this in COFF.

2. I don't understand why it is hard to hit the ground and take a divot. With no ball, just swing and hit the ground, Like BM does in COFF. Now place the ball back of the divot you just made and make the same swing again.

3. My simple logic would be that if you can't make a divot then you may be rising up and losing your spine-angle as you come into impact.

 

[savydan]

I have a few thoughts too.

I think an able-bodied, athletic guy like kc shooting 47 means he has a cancer in his swing that would be cured by elimination, rather than addding this or that. Best be handled with a good pro. However, he likes the knowledge approach so be it. I enjoy wasting time on swing theory as much as the rest of y'all.

I would think that the center of the swing radius is the left shoulder joint that, of course, moves its location throughout the swing.

As the left shoulder moves across and down to the right foot in the backswing, it would feel to you like you are effectively shortening the radius in relation to the ground.

This continues through transition, and the first part of the downswing, where Brian talks about the feeling that you are going to stick the clubhead in the ground.

Then about halfway down, as the left shoulder moves up and away from the target line (the Jump part of the Pull Back, Run-up and Jump move) the radius is "restored" and the ball is sent on its way.

So it's like down in the backswing, stay down in transition, and then up through impact. Now these words, in a sense, are an exaggeration of sorts. We're not bobbing up and down like a pogo stick. But if you watch pros (Hogan is a good example) you can see this by watching the left shoulder.

Granted, Nelson has his own leg action through impact that looks down, but if you look at the left shoulder it's definately going up.

 

[Chip Putterman]

The LEFT WRIST controls the clubface. What the left wrist does is what the clubface/sweet spot does.

 

[softconsult]

One of the things Brian emphasized with me, was left shoulder up, and back. He told me to think high fade swing. This was personalized for me. So went home and did it for awhile. Then, as is my tendency, I drifted around to some other swing thoughts.

Last practice session was Monday. I just thought I would go back to what he said. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I am working on something 1 or max. 2 things is all I can mentally handle. That session it was the left shoulder move and backswing extension with delay of right elbow bend. Absolutely pureing 8 iron and wedge.

Tournament Thursday morning. Plan to use those two swing thoughts. Problem is that when I execute these moves my iron distances change, as in longer. This introduces another variable. Think I am going to focus on the front edge of the green.

 

[vjsinger]

Howd you pull it off VJ? I've been having this weird feeling close to the top, almost like I'm regripping the club before the ds. Strange..... sometimes I have to just start over. Just started happening all of a sudden.

I needed a NHA type pivot to achieve better line into the ball. Once I got the feel of the correct BS and startdown pull feel in my left side, I went from low pull slicing my driver about 265w/roll to carrying it 295 with a straight to slight high penetrating draw ball flight. If you're losing your grip on the club you should check the grip, if that's right, I'd look at the first move down. If your right shoulder goes out towards the target forcefully at startdown this could be why. MAYBE you need to try feeling your left thumb more underneath the shaft at the top. Those are really my only guesses.

 

[vjsinger]

Just curious - have you ever tried more of a NHA pivot and a NHA2 "shake-the-sugar" move into impact?

This was my magic medication Especially in the BACKSWING

 

[fmlutz]

I don't know if this helps, but I don't worry about twistaway too much on the backswing. For me, I concentrate on twistaway on the downswing. I have been doing it forever and it still feels strange. But, at least I know when I don't do it. Sometimes I like to think of turning my left knuckles to the ground. Your ballstriking will improve if you do this. I had a case of the shanks a while back and twistaway practicereally helped. I had to make sure I did it slow at first and checked myself in the mirror.

Mike

 

[kc8kir]

Below plane, too much twist, and too much from inside...

For me...

Equals hooks.

Thanks though.

I'm working on a theory right now about my shoulder vs. arm action. More testing to do, but I think I'm onto something.

 

[Shot Limit]

Good luck buddy, I'm in the shits myself.

 

[puttmad]

...

Yes.

Something that occurs to me is this. When you setup to the ball, your swing arc is basically centered somewhere above and outside the left shoulder.

I don't think that is quite correct....which is why your left shoulder drops immediately into the backswing...

Your swing arc (swing circle) is centered slightly forward (into your body) of your 7th cervical bone, which is at the top of your backbone...

Your shoulders basically rotate around your neck, very much like spokes (neck to shoulder tips) around an axle (neck)....

And not all good ball strikers dip through/before impact...