Two Different Pivots (with pictures)

[Brian Manzella]

These are two pictures of me that I posed today.

I am not the biggest fan of posed pictures, but I wanted to get them as close to exactly right as possible. With the help of my student Adam Mallory, I did just that.

The picture on the left is a Top of the Backswing with the Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.

The picture on the right is a Top of the Backswing with the Piont between my Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.

I have taught both over my 25 years of teaching, but it no secret that I prefer the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot.

Here is my THESIS:

Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?

In my opinion, it is the Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot, PIVOT.

There are many reasons why I feel this way, but the #1 reason is that it is easier to do, easier to make a proper downswing from, give a better track to the inside of the ball, and produces better golfers overall with less back stress.

Obviously, the other pivot is perfectly valid option, but for the most part, again in my opinion, favors a stroke pattern (swing) that works more UNDER the sweetspot on the downswing and hense, more of a fade or hold shot.

Since 80% of all golfers or more are slicers, AND tour players in the Hall-of -Fame and on top of the money list are and have used a pivot either exactly like or much closer to my preference, I think it speaks for itself.

But, we like other opinions, so I open up the floor.

Remember the question: Which top of the backswing postion, would, if if were universally accepted by all golfers worldwide, produce the lowest "World Handicap" and the most PGA Tour caliber players?

I remind everyone of our new policy, just discuss the mechanics, not any teachers.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The downswing.

I figured someone would want to see downswing pics of the above, since the pivot center should be the center of the backstroke AND the downstroke.

The pic of "The Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the 'Centerline' of the Pivot," is very slightly off, as my head is an inch or so too far forward.

Again, sorry for posed pics, but these are just to give a visual to the discussion.

 

[mrodock]

I believe your reasoning is very sound. The head in the middle of the feet pivot requires a lot of extra work to be done in the transition area in order to be successful. I think the golfer that could have a lot of success with the head in the middle of the feet would need to have power to spare and a transition in which more than likely it wouldn't be enough to have only lateral lower body movement to create enough axis tilt, but also the head moving away from the target.

btw, I think this method is going to be extremely productive. Not so much effort will be wasted and with just the issue on our plates we will likely find a greater number of compelling posts.

Matt

 

[Martee]

To answer you question if that were the only two choices, I would opt for the picture on the right, but I don't think either are ideal.

My 2 cents, if you are going to attempt the style on the left, then you need a flatter plane/position at the top. I realized these are posed, but the guy on the left looks like his head is down too much and his shoulder and hips have not rotated as much. An upright plane would support your theory of the fade.

As for the guy on the right, IMO this is not the should center but the back of the shoulders. It looks like the guy has been pulled off the ball a bit. Again, this could be just trying to pose and in reality in the swing it wouldn't appear to be the outside back of the shoulder center but the middle of the shoulders at the spine center.

I think the second or picture on the right is more natural for the golfer, but I am not sure that it is optimal, but that does make it easier for a golfer to learn.

Just saw the post of the downstroke. The one on the left is UGLY, IMO.

 

[mrodock]

To answer you question if that were the only two choices, I would opt for the picture on the right, but I don't think either are ideal.

My 2 cents, if you are going to attempt the style on the left, then you need a flatter plane/position at the top. I realized these are posed, but the guy on the left looks like his head is down too much and his shoulder and hips have not rotated as much. An upright plane would support your theory of the fade.

As for the guy on the right, IMO this is not the should center but the back of the shoulders. It looks like the guy has been pulled off the ball a bit. Again, this could be just trying to pose and in reality in the swing it wouldn't appear to be the outside back of the shoulder center but the middle of the shoulders at the spine center.

I think the second or picture on the right is more natural for the golfer, but I am not sure that it is optimal, but that does make it easier for a golfer to learn.

Just saw the post of the downstroke. The one on the left is UGLY, IMO.

I don't know, pics on the right look great to me. Very dynamic and a noncompensating position. As Brian pointed out in the Mike Austin thread I believe, a decent amount of lateral movement of the head on the backswing (not Ben Crenshaw or Curtis Strange) really helps one maximize their power. There aren't a lot of guys that crush the ball nowadays with the legs way in front of their upper body at impact (face-on). Seems as though there is a good amount of axis tilt (esp. with a driver) and the legs are supportive under the body. Hard to get enough axis tilt with the head in the center while having this kind of support from the legs I figure.

Matt

 

[Spike]

Pivot Pictures

Without a doubt the pictures on the right. Better alignment=easier balance and less stress (especially when "posed" eh?)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Martee,

Thanks for you post on this thread.

I think you need to see the address positions of both to better see what is happening in the respective backswings.

For the sake of clarity, I also included with each, an overlay of the Address and the top.

I think you may now agree with me about the amount (very little) of head movement in my prefered pivot.

 

[Spike]

Address

Very important. Maybe this could be the fourth imperitive! Hehe

 

[Brian Manzella]

I will say this...

Very important. Maybe this could be the fourth imperitive! Hehe

I like the "Point between the Shoulders Pivot" ADDRESS POSITION better as well.

I did my very best to represent the style of the other pivot at all times, which includes address. The "the Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the "Centerline" of the Pivot" Pivot, require the head to actually be in the center of the stance at address as well.

 

[jpvegas1]

Shoulder Blade Centered Pivot

Brian:

I concur that your pivot using the shoulder blades as center line is the more athletic looking and puts you in a much better position. But people cling to certain ideas of swing orthodoxy despite solid evidence. I remember you introducing this concept to a student who had a very good swing. Immediately, his swing became more powerful and athletic. He increased his yardage by 20-30 yards. Yet despite all this and people telling him his swing looked better, he didn't want to make the change because it went against a preconceived idea of swing orthodoxy.

Keep putting your ideas out there. I like your new style without names attached, just debate the merits of the swing theory not the personalities.

 

[Spike]

I like the "Point between the Shoulders Pivot" ADDRESS POSITION better as well.

I did my very best to represent the style of the other pivot at all times, which includes address. The "the Center of my Head in the center of my stance, as the "Centerline" of the Pivot" Pivot, require the head to actually be in the center of the stance at address as well.

Understood. "World Handicap" is the objective. When there is a way for golfers to understand, make it easier to learn and do with less stress on the body then all you need is marketing.

Geez, maybe that's the fourth imperitive.

 

[Brian Manzella]

NSA 2.0

It's coming soon, Spike.

 

[ChrisNZ]

I'm going to dissent a little - I think I prefer the one on the left. I'm no expert, but intuitively I just thought it looked better. I don't like the look of the flat shoulder turn at the top with the right picture. Everything looks jammed up somehow. For a driver I can see the power in the right pic, but if I had an iron in hand I think a clean hit looks easier from the left.

I'm no expert - nor a partisan. I'm not even saying left is better necessarily. More aesthetically pleasing to me I guess!

Chris

 

[azgolfer]

To me, the backswing is done with the weight on the (inside of the) right leg. Which is the right picture.

 

[eric54]

My teacher always tells me to stay behind the ball so its the pic on the right for me

 

[cdog]

I think the pic's on the right (shoulder blade) would lead to lower handicap and overall better if for nothing else than the maintence of the swing would be much easier.

The head in the center alignments would be much harder to consistantly maintain.

 

[Perfect Impact]

" he didn't want to make the change because it went against a preconceived idea of swing orthodoxy." is an extremely prevalent condition. And why "orthodoxy" is so mesmerizing escapes me... It is one of the hardest obstacles for a teacher to overcome due to the fear at its roots.

Credibility may have more to do with celebrity status of the teacher than logic or expertise or legitimate testimonials.

Things are not what you would expect. Teaching requires considerable understanding of psychology...

 

[dodger]

Brian, is the picture on the right compatible with "never hook again" corrections? As someone who has fought an underplane swing, an attempt at the pivot on the right always results in miserable shots. While I would like to get in the position on the right, pivoting around the head gets better results, especially in getting the club to go left after impact. Does the preference have to do with one's swing plane? In other words, would you ever teach the shoulder centered pivot to someone who is underplane and tends to hook? Or would you first attempt to steepen the plane and then work on pivot?

 

[birdie_man]

I'm going to dissent a little - I think I prefer the one on the left. I'm no expert, but intuitively I just thought it looked better. I don't like the look of the flat shoulder turn at the top with the right picture. Everything looks jammed up somehow. For a driver I can see the power in the right pic, but if I had an iron in hand I think a clean hit looks easier from the left.

I'm no expert - nor a partisan. I'm not even saying left is better necessarily. More aesthetically pleasing to me I guess!

Chris

Good post good post....that's definitely fair.....I like when ppl think for themselves.

The arm swing doesn't have to be flat with a head movement to your right tho. (look at David Toms)

 

[tourdeep]

too much time on my hands...

Having spent way wo too much time studying pictures of the best, whether or not it's the tripod, or back of the spine methodology, or whatever in between to get these admired pro positions (it has no bearing on my observations,,,well maybe a little now ) all have that left side sag look, and head moves off the ball.


when "i think" the head centered steady, it is not...