Underplane - Tiger vs Sergio
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Good Question...
Two differnent things.
1. A DOWN-shift to the elbow plane on the downswing, ala Sergio, Ben Hogan, and our Mike Finney.
2. A DOWN-sag of the club BELOW whatever your plane is, or UNDER PLANE movement of the right shoulder.
Tiger suffers from #2.
Two differnent things.
1. A DOWN-shift to the elbow plane on the downswing, ala Sergio, Ben Hogan, and our Mike Finney.
2. A DOWN-sag of the club BELOW whatever your plane is, or UNDER PLANE movement of the right shoulder.
Tiger suffers from #2.
tongzilla
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So how do you teach someone to go from down SAG to down SHIFT? And while we are at it, from down SHIFT to NO shift?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
The most important thing i've ever learned from Brian was to never force anyone to make a shift in their swing (unless they should and just quite aren't getting there) and to never take it out either.
lia41985
New member
Brian, in the pictures I've posted of Tiger this year, he seems to have a good down plane right shoulder--don't you think? As an example, here's a picture from yesterday's final round:
If so, then the DOWN-sag must be his problem. Either way, what's Tiger's plane ("whatever your plane is...")? Are you're talking about the elbow plane? Where does Tiger go wrong from the following position (another picture from yesterday's round):
If so, then the DOWN-sag must be his problem. Either way, what's Tiger's plane ("whatever your plane is...")? Are you're talking about the elbow plane? Where does Tiger go wrong from the following position (another picture from yesterday's round):
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lia - His initial move from the top is from having the club on plane to having the clubhead drop under plane while his hands and grip remain on plane. That I believe is what BM is trying to say and it's what I've noticed.
This problem is much more exagerated as of late. He used to do it even when he was with Butch, but now its much more prominent in his swing. He is in the true definition of "Laid off". A lot of people mistaken a shift of plane from the TSP to elbow plane as being laid off when it's dropping the whole aparatus instead of just the clubhead.
He is successfull when he is able to get his hands low enough and under the shaft before making his move toward the ball. For the first half of his round yesterday he couldn't.
It's one of the reasons he's getting off of his right side much later in his swing now. He's trying to delay as long as he can, to get his hands under the shaft. If he let his right side go as he did in 2000 he'd hit his dreaded push fade and his right shoulder would come out of it.
That's why his right shoulder is in fact going DOWN TOO MUCH. It's the only way he can save the shot, but it does cause an occasional "swing too far right". The difference being that this particular miss to the right is much less significant than his push fade when he comes out of it.
In effect his latest move, although very flawed, is less of a miss and he's able to win with it.
This problem is much more exagerated as of late. He used to do it even when he was with Butch, but now its much more prominent in his swing. He is in the true definition of "Laid off". A lot of people mistaken a shift of plane from the TSP to elbow plane as being laid off when it's dropping the whole aparatus instead of just the clubhead.
He is successfull when he is able to get his hands low enough and under the shaft before making his move toward the ball. For the first half of his round yesterday he couldn't.
It's one of the reasons he's getting off of his right side much later in his swing now. He's trying to delay as long as he can, to get his hands under the shaft. If he let his right side go as he did in 2000 he'd hit his dreaded push fade and his right shoulder would come out of it.
That's why his right shoulder is in fact going DOWN TOO MUCH. It's the only way he can save the shot, but it does cause an occasional "swing too far right". The difference being that this particular miss to the right is much less significant than his push fade when he comes out of it.
In effect his latest move, although very flawed, is less of a miss and he's able to win with it.
lia41985
New member
What plane? TSP, elbow, shaft plane, parallel plane? I don't understand. Lots of other information in your post to think about. Thanks for it.
lia41985
New member
I'll go comment-by-comment:
Is this why Tiger's hands may have moved lower at address?
Is this why Tiger's keeping his right heel down longer?
Is this because, as Michael Finney pointed out elsewhere on this forum, in trying to return the shaft at impact on the same angle as at address, as per Haney's preference, one tends to lag the sweetspot? And in lagging the sweetspot, is this why Tiger's trying to get his hands low and under the shaft (logically aided by staying on the right side longer)? That is to say, ARE THESE THE PROBLEMS OF SOMEONE TRYING TO BE A PURE SWINGER (given Tiger's excessive arm rotation) WHO IS TRYING TO RETURN THE SHAFT AT AN ANGLE AT IMPACT TO THE SAME ANGLE THAT IT WAS SET AT DURING ADDRESS!?!?!?
Funny thing about your last comment... that's exactly what they pointed out in the "swing vision" on Sunday. They said the "triangle" was returning to the ball the same as it was at setup. I'm not sure if that's really what he's working on or not, it could just be theory. Those guys love to point out some odd thing or another and contribute someone's good swing to that.
Anyway, moving on...
Lower hands at address, yes I believe so. You'd have to get inside Tigers head to know for sure... he sure won't answer that question honestly in front of reporters.
Right heel down longer, yes. And also because a lot of people believe this improves balance which has always been a source of inconsistency for Tiger. I am not sure of exactly the connection (as to WHY he's doing it) but I believe he's really trying to keep the heel down and set up with his hands lower at address so that he can avoid his dreaded "stuck" position. It's very common to see instructors telling juniors who have a problem getting stuck to keep the right heel down longer. It's all connected with this "drop into the slot" notion. It works sometimes, but tends to be very restrictive and erratic IMO. But hey, a guy just won a major with it so who am I to say?
I'm not really sure about that whole paragraph at the last part of your post. I'm not familiar with the discussion your mentioning with Mike. In the face of that I'll just stand by my original statement. I think he's trying to swing more upright, hands closer, and right foot down longer in order to get his hands under the shaft. Something Tiger has fought all his life. This is just yet another "band-aid" that someone perscribed to fix it. Tiger has sufficient talent to make band-aids work though.
So he can apply force as they say, "Accross the shaft"... or as I say "apply force on plane".
If you draw a line from the top of the swing where the hands are, the good players are almost always straight on plane toward the ball from the down the line view. Ideally the clubhead follows that same line toward the ball otherwise there must be an effort made to force the club back to that plane before impact. Getting the clubhead UNDER that plane will either cause a hook or a push fade depending on whether or not they are successful at getting the clubface square.
If you draw a line from the top of the swing where the hands are, the good players are almost always straight on plane toward the ball from the down the line view. Ideally the clubhead follows that same line toward the ball otherwise there must be an effort made to force the club back to that plane before impact. Getting the clubhead UNDER that plane will either cause a hook or a push fade depending on whether or not they are successful at getting the clubface square.
lia41985
New member
Ok, so what you are talking about here is what TGM refers to as the Turned Shoulder Plane--the line from the sweetspot at address to where the hands are at the top of the backswing going through the right shoulder, correct? Couldn't you draw a straight line from the ball to any position the hands are in and say, "that's straight on plane"? How do YOU define the plane you're referring to?
Also, your explanation, which thank you for, does not yet enlighten me on why Tiger needs to get the hands under the shaft.
No, I'm not talking specifically about the TSP. Just any plane which the golfer is trying to achieve on the forward swing.
Think of it this way. What if we traced the clubhead path and found that it follows the elbow plane.. but when you traced the path of the hands you found that it was on the turned shoulder plane? The clubhead would be comming in on a different plane than the hands. So any force that is being applied to swing the hands is NOT being applied to the same plane that the club is swinging on.
That's like pushing a car sideways to try and clutch start it. You need to apply force in the same direction you want the car to move otherwise it's a bunch of wasted effort.
shortgamer
New
What I want to know is how do you know he's swinging underplane versus swinging too far to the right which I would think may look similar from the behind view. I mean with all his power can the club actually be off plane from his hands towards the bottom of the swing or is this a parallax issue?
Good question but the key is in the first move.
I'd have to post some pictures to illustrate... but basically the clubhead is dropping down and away from his neck, while his hands are moving down and forward. Clubhead down and back, hands down and out. In fact it's a mini-casting of the club which he then regains with a snap load.
Thanks for that clarity Ringer, it helps! Doesn't this mean a more angled handle across the trail hand palm for hitters/swingers coming into impact with clubface true square to path would be more efficient?
birdie_man
New
Are you talking about the TSP? Not all players go down the TSP.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Would someone PLLLLLLLLLLLLEASE fine a swingvision from saturday or sunday's rounds so i can draw some lines and explain to all of you? Any video format is fine.
Thanks
Thanks
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