using the right amount of right arm at the right time

[tongzilla]

So we're meant to push with the right arm around mid-way down the downswing (club vertical to ground, face-on view) for full power. How are you meant to time this? Is it more of a gradual thrust or sudden push?

Also, after experimenting a bit with this, I figured to achieve consistency (in feel) across all shots/clubs, I also need a bit of right arm thrust for half swing pitch shots, even though less than full power is needed. What do you guys think?

 

[JEREMY5577]

I think you're right. Right arm position and feel should be monitored until it can be subconscious just like throwing a ball. I prefer to lead with right elbow from transition to just post impact. I think this subject needs more attention, it seems to be overlooked in all this.

 

[Dariusz J.]

[...]should be monitored until it can be subconscious just like throwing a ball.

And why not let it be subconscious before monitoring if it is desired and spare time for monitoring ?

Cheers

 

[JEREMY5577]

And why not let it be subconscious before monitoring if it is desired and spare time for monitoring ?

Cheers

Your hammering a nail analogy from the other day. Yes letting the subconscious take over is the best way to swing a hammer no question. But what if you had to swing the hammer left handed? Would you trust your subconscious not to smash the fingers in your right hand? Try it and let me know. In my case I throw left handed so I need to train the right side to mimic a throw during a golf swing. It has become subconscious now.

 

[dschultz6072]

It should be gradual so you reach maximum speed at the point of impact.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Your hammering a nail analogy from the other day. Yes letting the subconscious take over is the best way to swing a hammer no question. But what if you had to swing the hammer left handed? Would you trust your subconscious not to smash the fingers in your right hand? Try it and let me know. In my case I throw left handed so I need to train the right side to mimic a throw during a golf swing. It has become subconscious now.

Hmm...good question, but why should anyone learn to go against genetics to prove how hard is to use subconscious mind ? If I am RH why should I learn to hit it LH ? Handedness is above subconscious mind there, I guess. Subconscious mind learns very quickly and does not need thousands of reps if one does not want to apply anticonscious movements.

Reminds me of a thread from the TGM days.

Only provided the option of training antisubconscious movements (as e.g. dragging the handle is) prevails.

Cheers

 

[JonWil]

But what if you had to swing the hammer left handed? Would you trust your subconscious not to smash the fingers in your right hand? Try it and let me know.

 

[ZAP]

Tried it yesterday. NOT SO MUCH!

 

[Todd Dugan]

I'm sure almost everyone who creates good power in the swing is not conscious of the arms becoming fully extended after impact. It is fundamental in sports. "Disruptions" to this natural atheletic motion are rooted in fundamental misunderstandings of how the swing should function mechanically. If you don't get good extention then you may benefit from consciously pushing the right hand away from the body until after the ball leaves the clubface. You'll be able to push longer when you "carry" the pushing motion forward toward the target with the body pivot motion to the left side.

 

[SteveT]

So we're meant to push with the right arm around mid-way down the downswing (club vertical to ground, face-on view) for full power. How are you meant to time this? Is it more of a gradual thrust or sudden push?

Also, after experimenting a bit with this, I figured to achieve consistency (in feel) across all shots/clubs, I also need a bit of right arm thrust for half swing pitch shots, even though less than full power is needed. What do you guys think?

Good question, tongzilla ... and as a matter of fact, I did offer a forum question for the ASII scientific panel on the application of "out-toss" as it may affect downswing shaft loading patterns. I haven't heard any response, or even if the question was presented to them.

Nevertheless, the timing of the use of the rear arm/hand against the club handle in the downswing does create unique downswing shaft loading profiles as revealed by True Temper in their ShaftLab apparatus which measures that loading.

Here are three graphs of typical downswing shaft loading profiles as determined from TrueTemper ShaftLab testing.

The scientific study backing up these curves is in Science and Golf II (1994): The Dynamic Performance of the Golf Shaft During the Downswing - J.H. Butler and D.C. Winfield


As you can see from these load curves, the shaft loading can be one-peak, two-peak and ramp-up. The application of force on the handle contributes to the loading of the shaft, and we can see from the curves that rear hand loading can be early, late or intermediate within the downswing.

Everybody has a different style of shaft loading, and there can even be hybrid loading profiles. Unfortunately, TT has discontinued their neat ShaftLab gizmo because it was expensive, there was little interest by "feel" golfers and the strain gauges within the shaft tended to fail with no easy repair.

Interestingly, there is no one "best" loading profile, and the graphs for pro golfers varied across the spectrum. So asking when you should apply "right" arm force on the club handle that is quite personal. Now that you are aware of how shafts can be loaded, it may assist you in guessing how you prefer to load the shaft in the downswing, and then take it from there.

 

[JEREMY5577]

So we're meant to push with the right arm around mid-way down the downswing (club vertical to ground, face-on view) for full power. How are you meant to time this? Is it more of a gradual thrust or sudden push?

Also, after experimenting a bit with this, I figured to achieve consistency (in feel) across all shots/clubs, I also need a bit of right arm thrust for half swing pitch shots, even though less than full power is needed. What do you guys think?

I was working on Michael Jacobs table top drill this morning (which is awesome btw) and realized my right arm is not only the driving force, but when standing straight up with the club parallel to the ground the left side has nothing to pull against. So in tongzilla's original question wouldn't the right arm be the driving force all the way from the top? And it's driving against the jump?

 

[OLIVER1]

I was working on Michael Jacobs table top drill this morning (which is awesome btw) and realized my right arm is not only the driving force, but when standing straight up with the club parallel to the ground the left side has nothing to pull against. So in tongzilla's original question wouldn't the right arm be the driving force all the way from the top? And it's driving against the jump?

Hey Jeremy,
Would you mind rephrasing that a bit . It seems very interesting, but I can't seem to conceptualize it.
Thanks and sorry to be asking you to do this.
Regards
Oliver

 

[JEREMY5577]

Ok the table top drill: See Michael Jacobs video on his site. Stand straight up and down club fully extended and parallel to the ground. Take a backswing and extend the club back in front of you along the table top. Pay attention to what drives this. If you do it enough times the right arm actually gets tired. Then try to do it with the left arm driving it. It doesn't work there's nothing for the left side to work against. If I'm understanding it correctly and Michael says to simulate the table top on an inclined path. Then the left side of the body is just there to guide and assist in the jump. Using the table top drill during the swing and driving it with your right arm works really good. Your driving the right arm against the jump. I never hit golf balls as good as I did this morning. Those free videos on his site are a must watch and I cant believe there free. Im not an expert correct me if this seems wrong to anyone?

 

[OLIVER1]

Ok the table top drill: See Michael Jacobs video on his site. Stand straight up and down club fully extended and parallel to the ground. Take a backswing and extend the club back in front of you along the table top. Pay attention to what drives this. If you do it enough times the right arm actually gets tired. Then try to do it with the left arm driving it. It doesn't work there's nothing for the left side to work against. If I'm understanding it correctly and Michael says to simulate the table top on an inclined path. Then the left side of the body is just there to guide and assist in the jump. Using the table top drill during the swing and driving it with your right arm works really good. Your driving the right arm against the jump. I never hit golf balls as good as I did this morning. Those free videos on his site are a must watch and I cant believe there free. Im not an expert correct me if this seems wrong to anyone?

A-ha. I see. Yeah, that clears it up a bit for me. Would you say that the right arm is driving against the jump, or past it?
Thanks, Jeremy...Much appreciated.