Video: Too laid off? Downswing too inside?

[tonyrtonyr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uUyFA_IUw

As might be obvious, this is a driver swing. I hit this one solid and straight with a high trajectory (for me).

My standard shot is low. I can play well at times (near scratch) but also have a tendency to be inconsistent. My bad shots are a smother hook and it's kissing cousin the right-by-right glancing blow with clubface wide open. I say kissing cousin since I presume these 2 are both related to a downswing that is too far inside and an occasional tendency to hang my weight back (at which point I either roll it over and smother or hang back and we have the right-by-right).

If you were me what drills or swing/setup changes would you employ to be more consistent and eliminate the tendency for the combination of flaws above?

By the way, I love the forum -- good info, good discussions (and the occasional good debate ).

 

[lia41985]

You're a candidate for Brian's video "Never Hook Again".

Can't see much in this video, but an OBVIOUS thing is your posture. You need to bend down to the ball. You're torso is too erect.

 

[Perfect Impact]

Disagree.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It doesn't look TOO BAD but one thing that sticks out is that your right shoulder is off plane. It could be camera angle BUT if your right shoulder is moving around a lot, meaning:

sometimes above plane
sometimes just right
sometimes under

You'll hit a lot of missed shots both ways. Your swing doesn't look too bad and it seems to come in on the elbow plane. Something more down the line so that we could minimize the camera paralax would be more beneficial.

 

[tonyrtonyr]

You're a candidate for Brian's video "Never Hook Again".

Can't see much in this video, but an OBVIOUS thing is your posture. You need to bend down to the ball. You're torso is too erect.

Thanks!

I have "Confessions of a Former Flipper" -- I had thought about getting "Never Hook Again" as well. (Can't find it on the site at the moment).

Posture was the first thing I noticed as well! I have fought just the opposite at times. Often when I bend more at the waist, I tend to bend my knees too much (and thus get too much weight on the heels). When I straighten the knees to make sure weight is balanced between toe and heel, I can get too upright!

Conversely, when I try to bend at the waist and keep my legs from not bending so much I fight just the opposite: getting too much weight out on the toes.

I suspect I may want to focus on pushing my rear-end out without letting it drop down (that is, without the knees bending too much). Oddly (or maybe not) I can hit the smother hook in both postures (although I believe I lay it off at the top a tad less when I have the less upright posture dialed in).

 

[tonyrtonyr]

It doesn't look TOO BAD but one thing that sticks out is that your right shoulder is off plane. It could be camera angle BUT if your right shoulder is moving around a lot, meaning:

sometimes above plane
sometimes just right
sometimes under

Thank you sir.

You could be onto something here. For what it is worth, I often FEEL my shoulders are off plane (essentially going more around then they should).

Recently I've been experimenting with a new feel (a new feel for me that is): I've been trying to imagine extending my left shoulder as high up at impact as I can get while still maintaing the suppinated left wrist and solid left side. An obvious result is that my right shoulder is more under (I suspect more on plane). In effect I really feel like I'm strecthing my upper torso (across the pecs and shoulders) at impact.

The good shots with this feel are much higher and more pleasing that my more flippy trap I'm used to at impact. Of course I feel I'm getting less swing speed, but in reality I believe the ball goes a bit farther (I still have an undeniable urge to hit with my right with that little bit of flip at the ball).

I haven't trusted this move enough to initiate a full-scale overhaul in this direction but I have considered it. It is quite different from my current move and I do hit some clunky shots (here I tend to miss more in the fat/thin sense than left and right).

 

[lia41985]

tonyrtonyr--If you find yourself bending your knees excessively when you bend too much from your waist, you may have a problem with hamstring flexibility. Bending from your waist will stretch your hamstrings, and because you may have tight hamstrings, you may compensate by bending the knees excessively to compensate for the tightness. Anyhow, check this article out: http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3504
As Jim points out, it looks like you have trouble having down plane posture alignments on the downswing. This may also be tied to your inability to create proper posture alignments due to physical limitations related to above noted hamstring issues, also hip and lower back inflexibility.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Recently I've been experimenting with a new feel (a new feel for me that is): I've been trying to imagine extending my left shoulder as high up at impact as I can get while still maintaing the suppinated left wrist and solid left side. An obvious result is that my right shoulder is more under (I suspect more on plane). In effect I really feel like I'm strecthing my upper torso (across the pecs and shoulders) at impact.

The good shots with this feel are much higher and more pleasing that my more flippy trap I'm used to at impact. Of course I feel I'm getting less swing speed, but in reality I believe the ball goes a bit farther (I still have an undeniable urge to hit with my right with that little bit of flip at the ball).

I haven't trusted this move enough to initiate a full-scale overhaul in this direction but I have considered it. It is quite different from my current move and I do hit some clunky shots (here I tend to miss more in the fat/thin sense than left and right).

You are on the right track, these are the correct feels and if you find yourself hitting it fat make sure you are still getting your hands in front of the ball and also you are not moving off the ball in the backswing.

It will seem like you aren't swinging as fast at first, but when you get the right shoulder on plane you end up with more delay and that makes up for the "perceived effort" you were doing before. Now once you really get how to do this, you can learn how to do it "faster" and thus get more speed.

 

[tonyrtonyr]

tonyrtonyr--If you find yourself bending your knees excessively when you bend too much from your waist, you may have a problem with hamstring flexibility. Bending from your waist will stretch your hamstrings, and because you may have tight hamstrings, you may compensate by bending the knees excessively to compensate for the tightness. Anyhow, check this article out: http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3504
As Jim points out, it looks like you have trouble having down plane posture alignments on the downswing. This may also be tied to your inability to create proper posture alignments due to physical limitations related to above noted hamstring issues, also hip and lower back inflexibility.

Thanks again.

I read this article (and subseqent thread). It brings up a couple toughts:

1) One problem when I bend more at the waist is that it obviously alters the angle between my wrists and the shaft. When I keep this wrist/shaft angle the same in the more-bent-over address, the club will not lie flat (the toe is in the air). Thus, I'm struck that I either need to have my clubs bent a few degrees flatter or, orient my wrists to a more upright feel. That is, I feel like I'm arching my right wrist in a very upright fashion (I've heard Jim MClean, in his Hogan analysis video, refer to this as "arching the wrist as if you are shooting a pistol in the ground in front of you" -- possibly crediting Jackie Burke (or Jr.) for this image).

So ironically, the more bent posture (more bent for me coming from a more upright tendency) gives me a feel in the wrists and arms of being more upright (if I try to get the sole of my clubs with standard lie to be flush against the ground at address). It feels awkward, so I have not committed to this. However I can see one obvious benefit: with my wrists more arched in this fashion I do seem to be more consistently on plane in the backswing. Wth the lower hands (that is, with the greater angle between wrists and shaft) I tend to pull it a bit inside and/or fan the club open going back when I'm going bad.

However doesn't the Mac O'Grady model have lowered hands -- I wonder if he has his irons bent flat? Many pros will have their long irons bent upright to promote a draw. Some pros (Furyk comes to mind) have their short irons bent flat but I've never heard of any decent player bending their mid/long irons flat (another argument for the more arched wrist I guess).

2) When experimenting with my waist angle I had been influenced by a thought from the Hardy/Azinger camp. Hardy advocates (for the one-planer and that seems to be my tendency) to try and get the shoulder line in front of (cloeer to the ball than) the toes at impact. Azinger had elaborated on this (can't recall the context) and said that he wanted to feel as if his toes were on a ledge and he was trying to peek over the edge of this ledge to the ground below. Both of these feels got me out of balance and too far out on the toes.

From the article, I like the image of "the neck being nearly parallel to the ground at address". Just now I've experimented with this feel and it allows my to get the better (more bent) waist angle without feeling like I'm leaning forward.

I'll report back how this all works on the range/course.

 

[lia41985]

I would say not to try to arch the wrists as this unnatural feeling will induce tension into your swing. If getting into proper posture requires lie angle adjustment to have your hands in a proper golf address position, then adjust your clubs. The clubs fit the golfer, of course, and not the other way around.

 

[tonyrtonyr]

You are on the right track, these are the correct feels and if you find yourself hitting it fat make sure you are still getting your hands in front of the ball and also you are not moving off the ball in the backswing.

It will seem like you aren't swinging as fast at first, but when you get the right shoulder on plane you end up with more delay and that makes up for the "perceived effort" you were doing before. Now once you really get how to do this, you can learn how to do it "faster" and thus get more speed.

Guys, I've been displaced from my golfing community and I'm can't tell you how excited I am to having a sounding board as I experiment with my swing and read all the thoughts from others!

Thanks Jim. I have been experimenting with the "throwing the drunk off my back" image as well. I find that I can get too open with the shoulders when I push this to the extreme (I really need to focus on the left shoulder going UP more than AROUND -- for me that is -- it's more like I'm trying to flip the drunk back over my left ear coming from my roundhousing tendency).

I guess like all golf adjustments you get a feel to counteract a bad habit and that new feel can be taken to its extreme as well. The trick for me seems to be finding that balance between the extremes. I guess the Buddhists would call this finding the "middle path".

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

that's golf, you learn something new and then you over learn it. Then you have to tweaked back. Then you get lazy and lose it again. Then you need to re-learn and re-tweak again.

The life cycle of the golf swing.

PS

All of my irons are 2* flat.

 

[tonyrtonyr]

that's golf, you learn something new and then you over learn it. Then you have to tweaked back. Then you get lazy and lose it again. Then you need to re-learn and re-tweak again.

The life cycle of the golf swing.

PS

All of my irons are 2* flat.

If that is the natural cycle, my progress (or lack thereof) does nothing to upset this rhythm.

Thanks for the insight into your lie angles. Jim, if you don't mind me asking, how tall are and do you have arms or legs that are inordinately long/short? I'm 6' even and as far as I can tell, my arm/leg/torso lengths are fairly average. I'm just wondering if some of this has an impact on the lie of your clubs.

With the flat long irons, do you have a hard time turning them over (this can be good if that is the goal)?

 

[lia41985]

tonyrtonyr--Having lie angles fit to you, be they more upright or flat, doesn't minimize your shot making capabilities, it expands them because the clubs fit you. Shot shaping then comes down to having the right impact alignments and path.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If that is the natural cycle, my progress (or lack thereof) does nothing to upset this rhythm.

Thanks for the insight into your lie angles. Jim, if you don't mind me asking, how tall are and do you have arms or legs that are inordinately long/short? I'm 6' even and as far as I can tell, my arm/leg/torso lengths are fairly average. I'm just wondering if some of this has an impact on the lie of your clubs.

With the flat long irons, do you have a hard time turning them over (this can be good if that is the goal)?

I'm 5'10" and i'd always like to think i have long arms but am not sure . Yes my long irons are hard to turn over (i can if i need too) but i like to play a cut with just about everything.

 

[lia41985]

Jim, they're not hard to turn over because of the long irons, are they?

 

[tonyrtonyr]

Thanks

Thanks to all who participated in this thread (esp lia41985 and Jim K.).

I hit the ball great this weekend. The increased posture actually helped get my right shoulder on plane (which I believe were correctly identified as the 2 culprits).

For me, the key to this posture change was envisioning my neck nearly parallel to the ground -- for some reason this allowed me to get comfortable. Also a big help was the Manzella advice that that upper back need not be ramrod straight (in fact a slight curve here is good).

One question though: should the posture, particularly the bend at the waist, be the same for all clubs? For me, the change (more bend at waist) helped a ton with the driver and longer clubs. However, my short irons (which were my most consistent clubs with my previous, more upright posture) seemed to want to go more inside (too inside) on the backswing and I got stuck and couple times with the right-by-right shot. I remedied this late in one round by concentrating on taking these short irons what felt like straight back away from the ball. With the driver, I have a much easier time float loading which prevents this inside takeaway. For some reaon, the float load does not seem to stick (for lack of better description) as well for me with the short clubs (maybe I'm quicker with them?). [If relevant, I tend toward *near* mid-body hands with all clubs with butt of club an inch or two left of belt buckle -- when it's at belt buckle, I tend to have a tendency to pull the ball).

So wondering if I should remedy this with (1) continuing to focus on float loading these short clubs (as I do with driver) and focus on taking them straight back as a safety net for yanking them inside or (2) *maybe* go back to being a bit more upright on the shorter clubs since I tended to have an easier time getting that right shoulder on plane with them in the previous upright posture.

My intuition tells my (2) is not the way to go since I would be tailoring my posture to the club rather than keeping a consistent posture and allowing the lie and length of the clubs to be the only variable, but I'm interested if others have thoughts.

 

[birdie_man]

Check your ball position and...

Can you draw it? Can you take a divot after the ball? Can you hit it low?

 

[tonyrtonyr]

Check your ball position and...

Can you draw it? Can you take a divot after the ball? Can you hit it low?

Historically, my natural shot is a draw (and when playing bad am in fear of rolling it over left), although with the increased bend at the waist I was hitting a high fade (or straight) with the driver. Keep in mind I'm talking about more waist bend coming from upright so effectively I'm moving to a standard posture.

I definitely take a divot after the ball, and can tend to be a digger (too deep of a divot) with quite a bit of lag. I can/do hit it low but have trouble hitting it high at times. However with the recent posture change (increased bend in the waist) I was hitting it higher. I suspect this is because I was also getting my right shoulder on plane (as opposed to under plane with a bit of flip to square up the clubface).

As I indicated earlier my hands tend to be low when I'm in his more bent over position and some of my divots did appear to indicate the heel was digging a bit (that is to say, I would consider getting my lies changed to be a tad flatter if I stick with this posture which is looking more like a possibility the more I hit it -- much more room for my arms, no fear of rolling it over and generally a more solid feel and mash to the shots -- feels like my weight is really behind the ball and I'm able to lean my lower body into the shot in a very solid manner with clubface square -- more distnace with less effort -- I'm guessing all the result of my shoulders on plane for the first time in awhile).

Re: ball position, I generally play everying about 2 inches inside the left heel (or just inside left armpit) with the driver farther up, more even with left heel. Not sure if playing the short irons farther back toward the middle of the stance would help from taking them back too insdie (my inclication is that it may not).

Still curious if people keep posture angle the same for standard shots with all the clubs or vary posture angle for long and short clubs? The increased waist bend helped, particularly with driver so a no-brainer there. However, it was not as good for the short clubs. Previously I was dead solid with these short irons and my more upright stance, but seemed to leave the face open and hit a few right-by-right with the change to more waist bend (I suppose from taking too for inside on the way back). But maybe that is golf: fix on thing only to have another break .

I suppose it is easer to get that right should on plane with the short clubs in my old stance. I'm really thinking if I stuck with my upright stance in the short irons but was more bent at the waist for the dirver and longer clubs I might have something but this strikes me as possibly the wrong approach. OR maybe I am already bent over enough since the shorter clubs would promote this and maybe my adjustment has me too bent over with the short irons.

 

[birdie_man]

Seeing as you play a draw already and that miss of yours is going right to right your plane line is probably going too far out that way I think.

Without seeing I can't say for sure tho and don't have much experience anyway. Regardless though, a video may help display your problem more clearly.

Or maybe your shafts are too....................................weak? (i.e. too much stress causing them to stay open)