Video: What Shaft Angle & Shaft Twisting About Itself Does To Horizontal Swing Plane

[lia41985]

Video: What Shaft Angle & Shaft Twisting About Itself Does To Horizontal Swing Plane

Check out this video:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T8qsXcHtJ-Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Looks like an instructive training aid--I know that laser aids have you been used for golf instruction before but I haven't seen one quite like this. The cross hair beam shows the effect of shaft twisting.

 

[Michael Finney]

Check out this video:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/T8qsXcHtJ-Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Looks like an instructive training aid--I know that laser aids have you been used for golf instruction before but I haven't seen one quite like this. The cross hair beam shows the effect of shaft twisting.

we're getting closer......i wonder how much skewing of the crosshairs there is since it's projected at an angle?......love to see some high speed video of the downswing with the crosshairs turning - would think that crosshairs coming from the head end would be a must

 

[lia41985]

we're getting closer......i wonder how much skewing of the crosshairs there is since it's projected at an angle?......love to see some high speed video of the downswing with the crosshairs turning - would think that crosshairs coming from the head end would be a must

Great point--I didn't consider that! I agree on the last two points.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Rotating the shaft around its own axis does not change the Horizontal Swing Plane direction/angle. As long as the shaft continues to point at the same horizontal line, there is no HSP change. Those are good though for practicing "twistaway" by making an on-plane, wrist hinge only, with no wrist rotation, which is proven by keeping one laser line on the target line, or for just monitoring/modifying the overall amount of shaft/clubface rotation.

 

[lia41985]

Rotating the shaft around its own axis does not change the Horizontal Swing Plane direction/angle. As long as the shaft continues to point at the same horizontal line, there is no HSP change.

At about :12 just before the twist away is applied look at the crosshairs--look at where the T points (0 degree face with 0 degree horizontal swing plane). Just after the twist away is applied look at where the T points--the face and horizontal swing plane are now pointing right of the target line. Of course the face and horizontal swing plane direction can change in the downswing, which is why Michael made his comment regarding high speed camera and a laser on the head for downswing visualization. Again, what the video shows is that in isolation the twist away shifts the face and horizontal swing plane to the right and again, that can change on the downswing. Lee Trevino and Dustin Johnson have twisted away top positions and Trevino played a push and Dustin Johnson plays a push draw--I think this video helps to explain why.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Lia, do you really think that rotating the shaft in place moves it to a new plane, with a different horizontal
direction? C'mon.

 

[leon]

Lia, do you really think that rotating the shaft in place moves it to a new plane, with a different horizontal
direction? C'mon.

Yes, but does twisting the shaft using your wrists really rotate the shaft purely about its own axis?

 

[lia41985]

Lia, do you really think that rotating the shaft in place moves it to a new plane, with a different horizontal direction? C'mon.

Todd,

Shaft rotation about itself changes the orientation of both the face and the horizontal swing plane. If at the top the butt end of the grip "points" (shaft is not steep or flat) to the target line and there is a total of 90 degrees of clockwise (this direction is notated with a positive sign) shaft about itself rotation (meaning a twist away has been implemented) then the face and horizontal swing plane are both actually oriented (why I put the term points in quotation marks) 45 degrees to the right ("open") of the target line. This is what the video shows--observing the ingenious "cross hair" beam shows this to be true.

I'm certain that you believe that shaft about itself rotation affects the positioning of the face but you're definitely denying it's affect on the positioning of the horizontal swing plane. Allow me to explain in more detail. Take the top position I just discussed: if from the top you get 90 degrees of counterclockwise shaft about itself rotation, strike level (0 degrees angle of attack), and return the club to the lie angle it was at address you'll hit a straight ball. In fact, there is ONLY ONE WAY you're going to hit it "straight" ("straight" being no divergence between face and path) on a level strike that returns the club to the lie angle as it was at address--with the net shaft about itself rotation in degrees equaling the face angle in degrees equaling the horizontal swing plane (which is the path since we don't have to worry about resultant path effects caused by non level strikes) in degrees, WHICH MEANS ALL THREE MEASUREMENTS ARE EQUAL!

This is the best example I could find to illustrate my example. Tom Lehman anomalously hit draws from an open stance. Check out his position at the top--I think it has something to do with why he was able to do that:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iuX8EEM1e48" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[footwedge]

Todd,

Shaft rotation about itself changes the orientation of both the face and the horizontal swing plane. If at the top the butt end of the grip "points" (shaft is not steep or flat) to the target line and there is a total of 90 degrees of clockwise (this direction is notated with a positive sign) shaft about itself rotation (meaning a twist away has been implemented) then the face and horizontal swing plane are both actually oriented (why I put the term points in quotation marks) 45 degrees to the right ("open") of the target line. This is what the video shows--observing the ingenious "cross hair" beam shows this to be true.

I'm certain that you believe that shaft about itself rotation affects the positioning of the face but you're definitely denying it's affect on the positioning of the horizontal swing plane. Allow me to explain in more detail. Take the top position I just discussed: if from the top you get 90 degrees of counterclockwise shaft about itself rotation, strike level (0 degrees angle of attack), and return the club to the lie angle it was at address you'll hit a straight ball. In fact, there is ONLY ONE WAY you're going to hit it "straight" ("straight" being no divergence between face and path) on a level strike that returns the club to the lie angle as it was at address--with the net shaft about itself rotation in degrees equaling the face angle in degrees equaling the horizontal swing plane (which is the path since we don't have to worry about resultant path effects caused by non level strikes) in degrees, WHICH MEANS ALL THREE MEASUREMENTS ARE EQUAL!

This is the best example I could find to illustrate my example. Tom Lehman anomalously hit draws from an open stance. Check out his position at the top--I think it has something to do with why he was able to do that:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iuX8EEM1e48" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't think it's at the top position that matters i think you can do it at various points in the swing and get the same result.

 

[lia41985]

Agreed, I just gave the top as an example.

 

[footwedge]

That's twice we agreed in 2 months, i'm buying a lottery ticket...lol.

 

[dbl]

This video for that laser device show it a full swing use: There are laser reflections for hands as well other club parts, and even when the shaft is parallel at the top.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/03FnmKxuiUc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[siksta]

Another awful training aid the people who come up with this crap are as crazy as Charlie Sheen. Can you imagine what Furyk's laser would look like wow. But there will be someone buying this stuff there's no easy way to improve its hard work, hard facts, and hard training like haney says great golfers are properly trained not born and gadgets like this dont get the job done!

 

[dbl]

Well with it AND using Manzella swing ideas doesn't sound so bad. I was interested in it showing the hand path..it shows where on the ground the hands are headed. ). Also you might even be able to get it to show the Eventual Sweet Spot plane, with a wall in the DTL position.

 

[lia41985]

Here was Todd's analysis from another thread:

Regarding the laser "t-generating" module... The shaft always points to the baseline (horizontal plane direction) of the plane that it is moving on. Assuming that the module eminates from the axis of the shaft, then the point where the lines intersect indicate the baseline of the plane that the shaft is moving on. If that point continues to point at a straight line on the ground, then there is no shift of the baseline. The lines themselves indicate the rotation of the shaft relative to the plane that the shaft is moving on. If you hold the shaft vertically, in your fingertips, and rotate the shaft in place, then the lines will rotate 360*. But the shaft points to the same place. Thus, no plane shift.

At about the 10 second point in the video one line is parallel to the target line, the other perpendicular. The parallel line indicates the horizontal swing plane and the perpendicular line indicates the face angle. At about the 12 second point in the video the top position shows an on plane shaft position (parallel line) with a square face (perpendicular line). At about the 14 second point in the video watch what happens when a twist is applied to the club. The line that was parallel has shifted rightwards as has the formerly perpendicular line.

To me this indicates a change in horizontal swing plane and face angle. I can't help but seeing it another way. I'd like some thoughts on what the forum members think is going on.

I believe that a golf club is one unit, and as such, it's component parts, including the shaft and face, are married. This is an idea I learned from Lindsey Newman:

A very important thing to always remember is that the shaft and the clubface are married. I say this only because when you steepen the shaft you are also squaring the face (ideally).

I think that an important ramification of this point is that shaft about itself rotation affects both the shaft and club face and consequently, horizontal swing plane and face angle. This is particularly true, I believe, because in trying to "zero out" we're trying to have there be as little discrepancy between face and path as possible.

 

[dbl]

At the 14 second I don't see any twist like is usually talked about. Usually talked about is a twist about the shaft, in other words a torque of the wrists/arms to rotate the shaft with an axis along the length of the shaft. At the 14 second mark it doesn't seem to me there is such rotation, just some motions to change the head (or wrist) positions.

So does that affect your analysis?

If you could perfectly rotate your hands 360 degrees, and thereby rotate the club about it's shaft certainly the face angle would change, but I have my doubts about the affect on HSP. I figure droop and such would change. And if you were trying to hit on the sweet spot you'd have to shift towards the target line some for very closed or open face angles.

 

[lia41985]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aUucIYtQIxQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[dragon_jonh33]

Oh! THanks ! I'm try