Videos - Fix my Dad's across the line?

[Lifter]

Months ago, looking at my dad's swing, Kevin commented that he has a healthy "reverse tumble" or something to that effect.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MacBDr53MxM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In contrast, I don't need reverse tumble as much:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BeGA2Z5UNfQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My dad and I certainly share one trait: an inside takeaway. But the more I think about it, the biggest difference between the two of us is that he gets across the line and I don't. So my questions are the following:

First and foremost, what are the things that my dad could do that would be most effective at eliminating his across the line?

Second, what are the primary reasons why my dad gets across the line and I don't?

The reason I'm comparing the two of us is that I don't think it's necessary to address the inside takeaway in order to eliminate across the line. After all, I haven't.

 

[Lifter]

If it's of any use at all, here's a shot of my dad from face-on:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wcikniNGlOI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[softconsult]

First and foremost, what are the things that my dad could do that would be most effective at eliminating his across the line?

Second, what are the primary reasons why my dad gets across the line and I don't?

Your dad is thicker, and much less flexible, and not a strong as you are. He stands up through the downswing, losing his spine angle. If you stand straight you are going to cut across the ball. Trust me, I have personal experience. Me at 30? 40 pounds lighter and very flexible. Me at 65, much less flexible. I can still get in the positions, but it's much more on again off again.

 

[Lifter]

First and foremost, what are the things that my dad could do that would be most effective at eliminating his across the line?

Second, what are the primary reasons why my dad gets across the line and I don't?

Your dad is thicker, and much less flexible, and not a strong as you are. He stands up through the downswing, losing his spine angle. If you stand straight you are going to cut across the ball. Trust me, I have personal experience. Me at 30? 40 pounds lighter and very flexible. Me at 65, much less flexible. I can still get in the positions, but it's much more on again off again.

softconsult,

My theory is that the "standing up" is a result, not cause. When my dad gets the shaft as across the line as he does, then he must reverse tumble and stand up. Without reverse tumble (which is aided by standing up), the clubhead would go overplane and he'd hit a huge slice.

I think that if my dad lays it off more, then it will be less necessary for him to reverse tumble as much as he does. Even though he's less flexible than I am, he should still be able to eliminate his across the line condition. Lack of flexibility should not be an excuse.

 

[Mike O]

He's certainly not an ArmLifter.
Across the line? Doesn't really stand out for me

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

i don't see across the line either, he has a backswing that is too low and too in and then he carries it a bit to find a better angle for him to hit it on. Is he flexible enough to get his arms more up?

 

[Lifter]

i don't see across the line either, he has a backswing that is too low and too in and then he carries it a bit to find a better angle for him to hit it on. Is he flexible enough to get his arms more up?

No, he will never get his arms more up. He's tried to do that for two years with no success. Just after his transition, it sure appears to me that he gets the club very vertical relative to the plane. To me, this is effectively the same thing as across the line. Is it not?

There must be some way for him to get more power without lifting his arms. Seems to me that trying to lay it off more sure would help. Would it not?

 

[softconsult]

After another look, it appears that his left hand grip is super weak and in his palm. No way for him to cock his wrist. May want to start there.

 

[Lifter]

Really? Here's a video of him from up close. What do you see in the left hand to lead you to believe that the left hand is super-weak?

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sBgApKb1W88" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Well, not to be a smart ass, Lifter. But it's pretty obvious by looking at it, especially in that most recent video you posted that his left hand grip looks pretty "manzella neutral" to weak. Hard to tell if it's in the palm or not. I don't know how that might, or might not be effecting things, I'm just agreeing with softconsult that the left hand looks weak.

 

[Lifter]

No worries, johnnymarlboro, always appreciate your help!

I still can't believe that no one else sees the vertical shaft. Just after the top of his backswing, I think that shaft gets way more vertical than it ought to be.

 

[LiftOff]

No worries, johnnymarlboro, always appreciate your help!

I still can't believe that no one else sees the vertical shaft. Just after the top of his backswing, I think that shaft gets way more vertical than it ought to be.

Lifter:

I agree with Jim and Softconsult, assure his grip is not in the LH palm. It appears to be. Also, he needs to follow up the wall on the BS. After he does that, take stock of the situation.

 

[Lifter]

Sounds like we have a consensus. Just for my education, could someone please explain what they specifically see that makes the grip look weak? It it the fact that the V between the left thumb and forefinger points straight in the air?

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[Jim Kobylinski]

No worries, johnnymarlboro, always appreciate your help!

I still can't believe that no one else sees the vertical shaft. Just after the top of his backswing, I think that shaft gets way more vertical than it ought to be.

I do see the vertical shaft, the problem is that it is "his way" to find some kind of plane to come down on to hit the ball. His backswing is so in and low (and flat) that he could NEVER hit the ball from there so he has to steepen it in transition to be able to hit the ball even decent. I would say your dad is hampered by a lot of flexibility issues and i would need to kind of be there to try various things to get him to hit it better.

 

[Lifter]

I do see the vertical shaft, the problem is that it is "his way" to find some kind of plane to come down on to hit the ball. His backswing is so in and low (and flat) that he could NEVER hit the ball from there so he has to steepen it in transition to be able to hit the ball even decent. I would say your dad is hampered by a lot of flexibility issues and i would need to kind of be there to try various things to get him to hit it better.

Thanks Jim! I'm beginning to see it. Like my dad, I too have an inside takeaway. However, the key difference might be the length of our swings. Since my swing is longer, I can manipulate it back to a good plane during my lengthy transition. My dad doesn't have that luxury. Due to lack of flexibility, his transition is much more brief. Once that clubhead gets above plane, he doesn't have nearly as much time to bring it back on-plane.

Very helpful stuff, thanks Jim. I still think it might be helpful for him to work on laying it off. But you've helped me visualize his limitations much more clearly.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

he is right now an all arms swinger and i'm betting ( you correct me) is because he is very inflexible in the hips/shoulders which is why he doesn't turn much; if you lay him off in transition he will HAVE TO rotate to get to the ball which he isn't doing now. So either he isn't doing it now because of the swing or he isn't doing it now because of flexibility problems. You only know which.

 

[Lifter]

he is right now an all arms swinger and i'm betting ( you correct me) is because he is very inflexible in the hips/shoulders which is why he doesn't turn much; if you lay him off in transition he will HAVE TO rotate to get to the ball which he isn't doing now. So either he isn't doing it now because of the swing or he isn't doing it now because of flexibility problems. You only know which.

Chicken and egg thing. Does across the line cause lack of rotation or does lack of rotation cause across the line? I think a case can be made for the former, because way back when he was much more flexible, my dad's predominate ballflight was still pull-slices.

These days, he actively tries to prevent rotation of his shoulders. He says that if they rotate too early, then he'll go over the top. I think this is a matter of degrees rather than absolutes. He's certainly never going to become an all-body swinger by any means. But if he lays it off more, he'll have a better swing plane. Which might allow him to use his body a little more and hit the ball farther.

Then again, it's conceivable that he's lost the flexibility to use his body even a little bit more. Who knows.

 

[coach]

From what I see your father starts the take away by pushing the left shoulder across and way deep in back swing, then your father has to push the right shoulder out. He does the vertical shaft in start of transition down to try to get back on plane or else he would come way out to in on down swing. I would work on him pulling the right shoulder back and in, takeaway, then pulling left on down swing.
If you stop the face on video at .018, he has enough shoulder and hip turn. Just using shoulders wrong, push push instead of a pull pull.
Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Lifter]

Interesting thoughts. Having trouble visualizing exactly what you're saying, though. Does his shoulder turn generally need to be steeper? Backswing / downswing?

 

[softconsult]

"Sounds like we have a consensus. Just for my education, could someone please explain what they specifically see that makes the grip look weak? It it the fact that the V between the left thumb and forefinger points straight in the air?"

My senior league is loaded with players using a similar grip. They have litte club head speed, and blame it on age. Age, strength, and lack of flexibility is certainly a factor, but if they would only spend some serious effort learning a proper grip they would gain clubhead speed. Find the Manzella grip segment, or thread. Look at your dad's angle between his left forearm and the shaft at transition. There really is almost none. That's ok if you are Steve Stricker, but not for us normal people.

If you get the grip right, then he could maybe learn to play with a short swing wrist , forearms sort of move. Right now I bet he can't make a swish sound in practice swing. I just mess around helping a few people our little shag range practice area. I show them how to hit the ground and make the swish sound. They typically can't do it. Grip change. Back and forth step drill. No I can't hear it yet and eventually several of them achieve it. Do they then work on it and do it in play? My impression is not so much, but at least I got to watch them smile when they go it on the practice range.