Videos - My Swing - Posture?

[Lifter]

Yesterday, I worked on Lindsey Newman's advice and stood closer to the ball. See the "before" and "after" videos below. The setup posture and follow-through positions of these two swings look very different. Of these two swings, which would you say is better? Why? It's hard for me to tell.

Before:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NVYOhljJRBg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

After:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J3iYEASzWFE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Kevin Shields]

Did either produce a better shot?

 

[Lifter]

Did either produce a better shot?

Kevin, I was able to hit great drives with both the before and after swings. By standing closer to the ball, I did seem to hit the ball more consistently but I'm not sure if it went any farther.

However, I noticed that in my "after" swing, my finish position looks very different. In the "before" swing, my finish looks very athletic to me, with my hips protruding to the left. My body forms a letter-C of sorts.

In the "after" swing, I don't form an athletic letter-C. It looks like a lazier finish. In reality, though, it might not actually be lazier. It might just be more efficient. That's what I'm really wondering about. Is the "after" finish a flawed finish or more-efficient finish?

 

[Lifter]

By the way, this weekend, I found that if I weaken my grip, I absolutely MUST make a big effort to shove my hands down vertically, as Lia originally suggested here: http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15251-grip-change-how.html Lia and Lindsey Newman, thank you thank you thank you!!!

 

[Kevin Shields]

Kevin, I was able to hit great drives with both the before and after swings. By standing closer to the ball, I did seem to hit the ball more consistently but I'm not sure if it went any farther.

However, I noticed that in my "after" swing, my finish position looks very different. In the "before" swing, my finish looks very athletic to me, with my hips protruding to the left. My body forms a letter-C of sorts.

In the "after" swing, I don't form an athletic letter-C. It looks like a lazier finish. In reality, though, it might not actually be lazier. It might just be more efficient. That's what I'm really wondering about. Is the "after" finish a flawed finish or more-efficient finish?

I would say more efficient because the vertical component may be helping you dump more force down into the ball, making your finish coast to the end. the horizontal swipe before wont allow this.

 

[Lifter]

I would say more efficient because the vertical component may be helping you dump more force down into the ball, making your finish coast to the end. the horizontal swipe before wont allow this.

Thanks guys! I think you've got me on the right track. I'm reminded that Brady Riggs looked at my swing 1.5 months ago. He also suggested that I stand closer to the ball. Great minds think alike!

 

[drewyallop]

horizontal swipe

Kevin implies so much good advice in these two words. Muscleling an almost horizontal club around with the upper body pivot is probably the least efficient way to swing. I could be wrong, but it may also encourage faulty sequencing, i.e. the upper body leading the downswing rather than legs/hips. And, if you are old, injuries to leading shoulder and lower back (me).

shove my hands down vertically

Again, the advice of shoving the hands down is, in my view, faulty. Gravity and an in-sequence lower body pivot will ensure that the hands fall with acceleration. No shoving necessary; and shoving may result in improper sequencing, the hands out-racing the shoulders.

Drew

 

[Lifter]

I would say more efficient because the vertical component may be helping you dump more force down into the ball, making your finish coast to the end. the horizontal swipe before wont allow this.

Could someone please explain exactly what Kevin is describing when he talks about this "horizontal swipe"? Is he saying that my downswing hand path is too horizontal and that it needs to be more vertical? Is my horizontal hand movement after my transition the "swipe"?

 

[Lifter]

Again, the advice of shoving the hands down is, in my view, faulty. Gravity and an in-sequence lower body pivot will ensure that the hands fall with acceleration. No shoving necessary; and shoving may result in improper sequencing, the hands out-racing the shoulders.

Drew

I think that Drew is very incorrect about "shoving the hands down." The fact of the matter is that 99.5% of the golfing population never comes even close to the vertical hand paths achieved by Hogan / Garcia / Fowler, etc. It isn't something that just comes naturally. I think there is a HUGE number of golfers that would benefit from consciously forcing their hands into a more-vertical path.

Take my Dad, for example, below is his swing:
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/M_Bk_RNwki0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My Dad has an overwhelming tendency to hit weak shots that start left and slice right. This weekend, I drew lines on his swing and showed him his terrible hand path. We went to the range and he worked on his hand path for an hour. Then we played a casual nine holes. Voila. Dad hit the ball better than he has at any point in the past six months and possibly the past year! His eyes were this wide during the round. Thus, I think for some people, the slight improvement in hand path that can be achieved by intentionally shoving can make a big difference. People like me and my Dad, for example.

 

[holeout]

Yes, but...

I think that Drew is very incorrect about "shoving the hands down." The fact of the matter is that 99.5% of the golfing population never comes even close to the vertical hand paths achieved by Hogan / Garcia / Fowler, etc. It isn't something that just comes naturally. I think there is a HUGE number of golfers that would benefit from consciously forcing their hands into a more-vertical path.

Take my Dad, for example, below is his swing:
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/M_Bk_RNwki0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My Dad has an overwhelming tendency to hit weak shots that start left and slice right. This weekend, I drew lines on his swing and showed him his terrible hand path. We went to the range and he worked on his hand path for an hour. Then we played a casual nine holes. Voila. Dad hit the ball better than he has at any point in the past six months and possibly the past year! His eyes were this wide during the round. Thus, I think for some people, the slight improvement in hand path that can be achieved by intentionally shoving can make a big difference. People like me and my Dad, for example.

Simply thinking handpath can and does work to an extent. However, you can try and force good handpath and still get underplane/swipe across the ball/hit it wide right. The proper sequencing of everything has to accompany the fixed handpath, otherwise it's never going to really stick and give you the results you're looking for.

The tendency we all have (myself included), is to find one thing that seems to be working for us, and ordain it the silver bullet for our golf swings. While a more vertical handpath is definitely something you would benefit from, it's also not the only thing that you need. There's just more to it than that.

 

[Lifter]

Simply thinking handpath can and does work to an extent. However, you can try and force good handpath and still get underplane/swipe across the ball/hit it wide right. The proper sequencing of everything has to accompany the fixed handpath, otherwise it's never going to really stick and give you the results you're looking for.

The tendency we all have (myself included), is to find one thing that seems to be working for us, and ordain it the silver bullet for our golf swings. While a more vertical handpath is definitely something you would benefit from, it's also not the only thing that you need. There's just more to it than that.

Excellent comments, holeout. I'm sure you're right that I have many flaws in addition to my high handpath. Once I achieve a good handpath, it'll be nice to be in a position where I can address those flaws.

Also, it's not like I'm focusing on shoving and only shoving. I'm doing all sorts of other things, like weaker grip, stand closer to the ball, etc. But the true focus is handpath. I'm making all those changes in order to make it easier for me to find that vertical handpath. The changes are the means, the handpath is the end, at least for now anyway.

 

[drewyallop]

Fair enough lifter. I think if you don't "fill up the gap" and you get the right shoulder involved too early in the down swing you may benefit from a shove which could get the shaft somewhere near the "javelin toss" position. But apply too much pressure and I believe you risk a hang back flip.

I am reminded of Brian's comment that he never teaches moving the club to a position. I believe he means that positions will be achieved naturally as long as the right preconditions are in place. A good example is lagging clubhead takeaway. No need to worry about getting to the back foot or about popping out. It will happen automatically as a result of the lag and letting the arms do their thing. In other words holeout is right when says there is much more to it than vertical hand path.

But having said all that, good on your Dad. Having fun is what it should be all about.

Drew