VSP question and why gravity is not cool

[ZAP]

First off the reason why gravity is not cool is shortly after my lesson with Brian I fell down the stairs in my house and injured my left elbow so I have been unable or unwilling to put in much time lately practicing the stuff from my lesson. I have been able to play but the idea of hitting a bunch of shots was not on the menu.

Now my question. During my lesson we worked almost exclusively on getting my angle of attack numbers down and increasing my VSP numbers. I spent some time today practicing as I played and flew over a few greens with clubs I would normally hit from given distances. Should I expect such a distance gain or were those shots likely just random?

I hope this question makes sense. Brian said my VSP numbers were what he would consider to be quite low for a decent player.

 

[dannyc]

First off the reason why gravity is not cool is shortly after my lesson with Brian I fell down the stairs in my house and injured my left elbow so I have been unable or unwilling to put in much time lately practicing the stuff from my lesson. I have been able to play but the idea of hitting a bunch of shots was not on the menu.

Now my question. During my lesson we worked almost exclusively on getting my angle of attack numbers down and increasing my VSP numbers. I spent some time today practicing as I played and flew over a few greens with clubs I would normally hit from given distances. Should I expect such a distance gain or were those shots likely just random?

I hope this question makes sense. Brian said my VSP numbers were what he would consider to be quite low for a decent player.

i believe the manz academy has found that the closer your vsp is to a "standard" lie angle, the higher the quality of the shot (all other things being equal).

 

[ZAP]

What about the fact that my irons are two degrees flat to begin with? Remember I am new to a lot of this technical stuff and I am trying to tie it together. For the first 18 years of my golfing life I basically hit it hard and went and found it and then hit it again. Basically I had no clue whatsoever about what made a ball do what it did. If I wanted to hit a hook I just made the swing I thought would curve the ball that way.

 

[dannyc]

2 degrees flat is ok imo. if your irons are 2 flat, then 2 degrees below your iron's "standard" would be your optimal plane angle/vsp.
however, you were probably much more shallow than that, which is why brian was working on it with you.

 

[Dan44GT]

Eyeoffish, do you curve the ball quite a bit? Because a more vertical VSP with less AofA (closer to zero)will help match-up your path and swing shape (HSP).

 

[ZAP]

Eyeoffish, do you curve the ball quite a bit? Because a more vertical VSP with less AofA (closer to zero)will help match-up your path and swing shape (HSP).

Used to hit a big hook with everything. My fade was a smaller version of the hook. lol After working through videos and my lesson my ball flight is fairly straight but it still tends towards a draw. I can hit a fade with the driver now which was nearly impossible a year ago. I need to find a way to spend some more time on Trackman this winter.

 

[weese]

Hope some of the trackman experts can answer.

Given two exact swings with a 6-iron with the only difference being the VSP, how would both shots differ?

 

[mgreer]

First off the reason why gravity is not cool is shortly after my lesson with Brian I fell down the stairs in my house and injured my left elbow so I have been unable or unwilling to put in much time lately practicing the stuff from my lesson. I have been able to play but the idea of hitting a bunch of shots was not on the menu.

Now my question. During my lesson we worked almost exclusively on getting my angle of attack numbers down and increasing my VSP numbers. I spent some time today practicing as I played and flew over a few greens with clubs I would normally hit from given distances. Should I expect such a distance gain or were those shots likely just random?

I hope this question makes sense. Brian said my VSP numbers were what he would consider to be quite low for a decent player.

Hope the elbow is getting better! What did you do to lower your angle of attack numbers while swinging steeper? I also had a lesson with Brian with the trackman and was swinging too far inside out and sliding too much delofting the club he had me move the ball up in my stance and swing more left while getting more open at impact,would like to hear what your working on. Thanks,Mike

 

[Dan44GT]

Hope some of the trackman experts can answer.

Given two exact swings with a 6-iron with the only difference being the VSP, how would both shots differ?

I dont know about expert, but I feel pretty comfortable with my Trackman knowledge so I'll give it a shot.

The Vertical Swing Plane angle (VSP) plays a role in determining how much the Angle of Attack will alter Club Path. A few examples below...

a) 6 iron with 62*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in approx. 2*Club Path (In To Out)
b) 6 iron with 45*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in 4*Club Path (In to Out more)
c) 6 iron with 75*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in approx. 1*Club Path (In to Out less)

Of course just reading this it would make it sound like a high VSP is optimal. Let's put it this way, not sure about optimal, but super flat swings certainly aren't optimal for consistency.

The above examples are just that, examples, I find it very difficult to change just one number on Trackman, such as changing VSP and AofA staying the same.

 

[weese]

Thanks Dan for the response. I'm kinda getting it but don't understand what is the difference between HSP and Club Path? Aren't these two things the same? If the VSP changes then shouldn't the HSP correspondingly change also?

Also taking your example of a 62 and 75 VSP. Wouldn't coming in this vertical mean a greater chance of the club face rotating closed leading to more pulls and hooks and more inconsistency? And wouldn't a flat VSP be more optimal since it is more difficult to rotate the face shut coming in flat?

 

[savydan]

HSP is the direction of the club head at lowpoint.

Club Path is the actual direction (horizontal) of the club head at impact.

If you are swinging down, then the CP is to the right of the HSP.

If you are swinging up, then the CP is to the left of the HSP.

If you are swinging level (AoA is zero), then the CP equals the HSP.

The second part of your question are generalities and may have some truth but are not absolutes.

 

[Frans@France]

I dont know about expert, but I feel pretty comfortable with my Trackman knowledge so I'll give it a shot.

The Vertical Swing Plane angle (VSP) plays a role in determining how much the Angle of Attack will alter Club Path. A few examples below...

a) 6 iron with 62*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in approx. 2*Club Path (In To Out)
b) 6 iron with 45*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in 4*Club Path (In to Out more)
c) 6 iron with 75*VSP, 0.0*HSP, -4*AofA will result in approx. 1*Club Path (In to Out less)

Of course just reading this it would make it sound like a high VSP is optimal. Let's put it this way, not sure about optimal, but super flat swings certainly aren't optimal for consistency.

The above examples are just that, examples, I find it very difficult to change just one number on Trackman, such as changing VSP and AofA staying the same.

Dan, Can I asume that you talk about VSP as being the angle of the club at impact and NOT about the VSP as measured by the Trackman? Otherwise I have trouble understanding your remarks.

 

[weese]

Thanks!

HSP is the direction of the club head at lowpoint.

Club Path is the actual direction (horizontal) of the club head at impact.

If you are swinging down, then the CP is to the right of the HSP.

If you are swinging up, then the CP is to the left of the HSP.

If you are swinging level (AoA is zero), then the CP equals the HSP.

The second part of your question are generalities and may have some truth but are not absolutes.

Now I got it.

 

[davey67]

Brian M. is the best. he covers just about everything when talking about different sections of the swing. I've been reading Kelly's book along with directions and interpretations from a certified instructor, but Brian seems to simplify the movements. the twist-away action of the left wrist and rt. shoulder into the right pocket move with a lagging clubhead is spot on. My question is: into the backswing and the start of the twist-away, I start down with a slight push off of my right foot. by doing this move it seems to tumble the club out before I start to put my right shoulder into the right pocket.
Is this the correct move??? Or should I say, am I on the right track??

 

[weese]

One more question

HSP is the direction of the club head at lowpoint.

Club Path is the actual direction (horizontal) of the club head at impact.

If you are swinging down, then the CP is to the right of the HSP.

If you are swinging up, then the CP is to the left of the HSP.

If you are swinging level (AoA is zero), then the CP equals the HSP.

The second part of your question are generalities and may have some truth but are not absolutes.

Is it possible to align dead straight at the target and hit it dead straight at the target assuming that you are hitting down with an iron? Will swinging left after impact matter since the ball is long gone?

 

[natep]

Is it possible to align dead straight at the target and hit it dead straight at the target assuming that you are hitting down with an iron? Will swinging left after impact matter since the ball is long gone?

If you aim dead straight at the target and hit down on the ball the only dead straight shot you can hit will be to the right of the target.

Therefore you should aim slightly left of the target to compensate for this, assuming you are trying to hit the ball dead straight.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Is it possible to align dead straight at the target and hit it dead straight at the target assuming that you are hitting down with an iron? Will swinging left after impact matter since the ball is long gone?

Yes, if you hit it on the heel.

 

[spktho]

Brian M. is the best. he covers just about everything when talking about different sections of the swing. I've been reading Kelly's book along with directions and interpretations from a certified instructor, but Brian seems to simplify the movements. the twist-away action of the left wrist and rt. shoulder into the right pocket move with a lagging clubhead is spot on. My question is: into the backswing and the start of the twist-away, I start down with a slight push off of my right foot. by doing this move it seems to tumble the club out before I start to put my right shoulder into the right pocket.
Is this the correct move??? Or should I say, am I on the right track??

Best to start your own thread about your swing.

Is it possible to align dead straight at the target and hit it dead straight at the target assuming that you are hitting down with an iron? Will swinging left after impact matter since the ball is long gone?

If you're swinging left after impact, you're horizontal swing plane has to be left through the whole swing, no? Can't just swing right, hit the ball, then swing left, so to speak.

 

[weese]

If you're swinging left after impact, you're horizontal swing plane has to be left through the whole swing, no? Can't just swing right, hit the ball, then swing left, so to speak.

I'm not sure I fully understand your response.

In my own swing, I try to have the feeling of hooking into the ball going into impact and slicing out of it. In short, swinging left. How would you explain a draw with a left curving divot?

 

[spktho]

I'm not sure I fully understand your response.

In my own swing, I try to have the feeling of hooking into the ball going into impact and slicing out of it. In short, swinging left. How would you explain a draw with a left curving divot?

I'm thinking that at the speed of a full swing, you cannot change the direction in mid swing. The club swing plane naturally goes inside, square, inside. Think of a hula hoop as the swing plane. Turn it left, your hsp is going left. Turn it right, your hsp is going right.

Where is the direction of the draw you are asking about starting?