Weak shafts, toe droop, and late releases

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Jim Kobylinski

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I had a significant fitting for the past few days with a guy i really trust and we really "ironed" out a lot of issues lol.

Now what is interesting is that he says that i load the shaft very hard and very early in the swing and it creates a lot of "toe droop" in my swing.

This makes a lot of sense because i was playing irons that were a little too soft for me and i was CONSTANTLY hitting shots off the toe and getting toe deep divots. When we went on the lie board we found out 4 things:

1) Irons were a little upright
2) shafts were too weak from the toe droop thus creating the toe shots
3) all the lie board marks were on the heel of the club
4) Manzella is an amazing teacher because my lie tape marks never varied for even an 1/8" of an inch unless we bent the iron's lie. This is a testament to what Brian has done for my swing and my consistency in my swing, THANKS BRIAN!

So we ended up having to go 2-3* flat in my these irons because of the weaker shafts. He said that if i used a stronger shaft i'd be able to get away with 1* flat from the smaller amount of toe droop and we also confirmed this by using his irons (same as mine just stronger shafts).

So once we bent my irons my lie marks and ball marks were consistently in the center of the face with no deviation. After about 12 balls in a roll there was a consistent pattern on the center of the face about the size of a quarter.


Now my question comes to swing speed, ball speed, and late releases. My swing speed never got that high; its actually down from last year due to being less strong and being a little overweight. It was averaging in the 103-105 range instead of my previous 108-110 from last year.

However i was getting really always efficiency from my driver shots with ball speeds in the the 157-161 range with 250-265 yard carries which is about what i get on the course from bad to good hits. I was curious if having a "late" release (which we witnessed on video) can contribute to some high smash factor #s and awesome ball speeds (distance too) without a high swing speed?

Sorry for the long post

Jim
 
Sounds backwards to me?


quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

I had a significant fitting for the past few days with a guy i really trust and we really "ironed" out a lot of issues lol.

Now what is interesting is that he says that i load the shaft very hard and very early in the swing and it creates a lot of "toe droop" in my swing.

This makes a lot of sense because i was playing irons that were a little too soft for me and i was CONSTANTLY hitting shots off the toe and getting toe deep divots. When we went on the lie board we found out 4 things:

1) Irons were a little upright
2) shafts were too weak from the toe droop thus creating the toe shots
3) all the lie board marks were on the heel of the club
4) Manzella is an amazing teacher because my lie tape marks never varied for even an 1/8" of an inch unless we bent the iron's lie. This is a testament to what Brian has done for my swing and my consistency in my swing, THANKS BRIAN!

So we ended up having to go 2-3* flat in my these irons because of the weaker shafts. He said that if i used a stronger shaft i'd be able to get away with 1* flat from the smaller amount of toe droop and we also confirmed this by using his irons (same as mine just stronger shafts).

So once we bent my irons my lie marks and ball marks were consistently in the center of the face with no deviation. After about 12 balls in a roll there was a consistent pattern on the center of the face about the size of a quarter.


Now my question comes to swing speed, ball speed, and late releases. My swing speed never got that high; its actually down from last year due to being less strong and being a little overweight. It was averaging in the 103-105 range instead of my previous 108-110 from last year.

However i was getting really always efficiency from my driver shots with ball speeds in the the 157-161 range with 250-265 yard carries which is about what i get on the course from bad to good hits. I was curious if having a "late" release (which we witnessed on video) can contribute to some high smash factor #s and awesome ball speeds (distance too) without a high swing speed?

Sorry for the long post

Jim
 
I think he means the lie angles, if you have excessive toe droop, you would need more UPRIGHT, not less, as you have posted. Faldo used to have the toe ip at address, and then it was flat at impact due to toe droop. So it seems a bit backward to me also, I think you mean it the other way round?
 
Thanks Brian...when do you head up to Louisville again? I wanted to have a tune up before the tournament season

Yeah...When Brian. I have been annoying Brian about this for a few weeks now. Hopefully he has figured it out;) I know your busy man...Im just itchin' to get some time in.
 
Yes, I'm confused on this as well...although it's very interesting.

I guess I'm getting confused because the ball shouldn't be catching the toe if the club is too upright. Of course, with the 'toe drooping' that makes sense but wouldn't you just play with a stiffer club shaft?

I sort of get what you're saying, but just still have some questions.

Also, did you use Trackman for the fitting?



3JACK
 

plf

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IThis makes a lot of sense because i was playing irons that were a little too soft for me and i was CONSTANTLY hitting shots off the toe and getting toe deep divots. When we went on the lie board we found out 4 things:

1) Irons were a little upright
2) shafts were too weak from the toe droop thus creating the toe shots
3) all the lie board marks were on the heel of the club

Toe deep divots should result in lie board marks on the toe of the club?
 
Tong, you stated

"Marks on toe = plane angle at impact too upright for the club = more upright lie angle needed"


If its to upright, how will going more upright help? If the angle at impact is to upright, then its flatter you need to go. Maybe it was a typo on your part hence why everyone goit confused? In this thread it also seems back top front. ie I am not sure what is being corrected, a shaft that is to weak or a lie angle that is too upright
 
Tong, you stated

"Marks on toe = plane angle at impact too upright for the club = more upright lie angle needed"


If its to upright, how will going more upright help? If the angle at impact is to upright, then its flatter you need to go. Maybe it was a typo on your part hence why everyone goit confused? In this thread it also seems back top front. ie I am not sure what is being corrected, a shaft that is to weak or a lie angle that is too upright
Not a typo.

If your SWING PLANE is too upright for the club, the marks with be toward the toe of the sole. Agree? Try putting your 7 iron perpendicular to the ground and you will see what I mean.

So assuming that's the swing you want, you would have to change the lie angle to more upright.
 
You mean the club is to upright for the plane? So you need it flatter. I am totally lost what you mean. To upright and you flatten it, I don't know now how to upright = need more upright. Sorry, I can't agree, but I must be missing something.
 
You mean the club is to upright for the plane? So you need it flatter. I am totally lost what you mean. To upright and you flatten it, I don't know now how to upright = need more upright. Sorry, I can't agree, but I must be missing something.
No I don't mean the club is upright for the plane. I mean the golfer's swing plane at impact is too upright for the club, so the club's lie angle needs to be more upright.
 
Jim, this is a head scratcher...

This makes a lot of sense because i was playing irons that were a little too soft for me and i was CONSTANTLY hitting shots off the toe and getting toe deep divots. When we went on the lie board we found out 4 things:

1) Irons were a little upright
2) shafts were too weak from the toe droop thus creating the toe shots
3) all the lie board marks were on the heel of the club
4) Manzella is an amazing teacher because my lie tape marks never varied for even an 1/8" of an inch unless we bent the iron's lie. This is a testament to what Brian has done for my swing and my consistency in my swing, THANKS BRIAN!

So we ended up having to go 2-3* flat in my these irons because of the weaker shafts. He said that if i used a stronger shaft i'd be able to get away with 1* flat from the smaller amount of toe droop and we also confirmed this by using his irons (same as mine just stronger shafts).

So once we bent my irons my lie marks and ball marks were consistently in the center of the face with no deviation. After about 12 balls in a roll there was a consistent pattern on the center of the face about the size of a quarter.

........
Jim


Jim, your first paragraph and second paragraph doesn't correlate...

If your iron shafts were too weak and you had some toe droop, thus a face angle aiming to the right at impact, you would have to bend them more upright to counteract the droop to have a level head through impact.

You said you had a bunch of heel marks on the impact tape and as a result you flattened your irons. That makes sense.

Martin
 
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