What part of this don't you understand.....?

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Brian Manzella

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Look....

You have a certain SPEED of the mid point of the grip.


You have a certain SPEED of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top.




On the abject THROWAWAY side, you have very little speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively high speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.


On the MASSIVE HANDLE-DRAGGING side, you have a relatively high speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the bottom of the grip past the top of the grip.



That's it.


My simplified easy to measure "handle dragging" metric.


Where do I say this is the ONLY way?

Where?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
HANDLE DRAGGING FACTS:

1. I taught it. I know what it is backward and forward. I saw what issues it created. And I found solutions for ALL OF THEM.

2. Every single teacher I have ever talked to about handle dragging, including some big names, ALL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT IS WITHOUT NEEDING ANY HELP TO SPOT IT.

3. The first Morad pattern was more or less invented to decrease the handle dragging consequences that Mac suffered from like OTGIR.

4. I saw teachers in the 80's, 90's and 00's teach folks to put NO APLHA TORQUE ON THE CLUB of any amount mid-downswing. By kinetic definition, that's HANDLE DRAGGING at that point in the swing.

5. The centers of curvature of the whole club, the hand path, and the clubhead can ALL SHOW HANDLE DRAGGING VS. NON-HD.

6. THE KINETICS OF A HANDLE DRAGGER DOWN NEAR IMPACT ARE—LOW APLHA, MASSIVE NEGATIVE BETA, HIGH GAMMA.

7. Multiple different parameters can show handle dragging in Jacobs 3D.


8. The only folks that don't understand handle dragging either: like it, teach it, or never could do it.

9. Jimmy Self, who was the #1 lesson giver in the USA from 1975 to 2000, posed handle dragging and it subsequent issues in lessons in the 60's to 2005 as he wiped the floor with Paul Bertholy when he was in NOLA.




It is an outright falsehood that Nesbit never measured good players. He measured dozens of them for secret USGA research. Please stop saying all of his research is "optimized for speed" — that's a lie. He can optimized for ANY parameter and does. BTW, he has run dozens of current PGA TOUR players data.


We can finally measure all the stuff that folks MOCKED US, saying "Its all find and dandy but you can't measure it"


We can now.


And we do.....
 
Yeah, I get it. The measurement is a ratio of the rate of the clubhead around the hands, relative to the rate of the hands around the body, at impact, or perhaps averaged around impact. And by that measurement, some of the best players in the world are closer to the dragging side than just about anybody I know who isn't on Tour.
 
With this definition, you could be handle dragging and still have fast rate of closure. Otoh, you could be NOT handle dragging and still have SLOW rate of closure.
 
Yeah, I get it. The measurement is a ratio of the rate of the clubhead around the hands, relative to the rate of the hands around the body, at impact, or perhaps averaged around impact. And by that measurement, some of the best players in the world are closer to the dragging side than just about anybody I know who isn't on Tour.

No. Brian said its the speed of MIDDLE of GRIP vis-a-vis TOP/END of GRIP (the other end of the club, as opposed to the other end-clubhead).
 
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No. Brian said its the speed of MIDDLE of GRIP vis-a-vis TOP/END of GRIP (the other end of the club, as opposed to the other end-clubhead).

I'm no scientist, but since the clubhead is attached to the grip by the shaft, I believe the ratio would be the same. I just prefer using the classic double-pendulum swing model.
 
An individual could do something to change the speed ratio of middle grip vs clubhead while ratio of middle grip vd top/end of grip will be the same (or change also but change is substantially less).
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Todd, for demonstration purposes...can't you see how the top end of the grip can go ZERO mph around the mid point or REALLY FAST around the mid point, while the mid point is moving from point a to point b at ANY speed??
 

mp29

New
If Spieth isn't a handle dragger by your definition, then your definition is contrived. Name a tour player who is a handle dragger.
 
I get it. And rotating the top of the grip around its mid-point rotates the clubhead around that same point. You choose to use points on the grip for reference. Fine. That's where the markers are, I guess. What you are describing is just a new way to express the examination of the double pendulum action that golf scientists have been doing since Cochran and Stobbs. Fine. Let's keep the conversation moving. However one examines "release timing", I think the data will show that, like many areas of technique, great strikers exhibit within a fairly wide range, with many top players showing a release timing which is comparatively later/slower. So I don't see why "handle dragging" has become a bit of a dirty word and I don't think its anything that the typical club golfer need be concerned with. I personally exhibit a very late release. But I can tell you, its not from any conscious effort to "hold" the release. To me, there's only one torque, the one that rotates my hands around my body. My wrists are 100% passive. Sure, I can hit the ball a little low at times, but I get good stopping power from spin and have my clubs set up with a bit more loft to compensate. I could release earlier if I wanted to, but prefer to do it my way. To release earlier is pretty easy to me. Have the intention to make the hands and clubhead follow a wide circle in the forward swing. No wonder then, that for the flipper, perhaps the best intention is make the hands/clubhead follow a straight line through the ball in the forward swing.
 
Clay you don't think that applies to your little band of misfits...in spades. Throwing stones from a glass house...hmmmm? Spine engine theory...hmmmm? Hips continue to speed up...hmmmm? Measuring a 2d photo with a protractor on the crown of a Driver and telling people the ball flight and face angle...hmmmm?

Scientific Research-a-thon that produced ...nada ....why because they didn't have the expertise to access the data...hmmmm?

Really Clay don't you think the kool-aid you're drinking is a bit sour...lol! Nesbit vs.Clay D. I think I'm putting my money on Nesbit! Nesbit does the work ,Clay just talks about Nesbits work... who is the scientist and who produced some great work...hmmmm?

The argument about bad players and tour players is ridiculous they know what tour players do they tested them... and you Clay and your band of misfits have tested how many Tour Players....hmmmm? I mean you guys refused to be tested by Kwon because J.M. didn't like Kwon's remarks and it was a setup and they couldn't learn anything from Kwon because Lucas knows it all... talk about arrogant, J.M. has thin skin and is paranoid and arrogant..that's too funny!


You're real problem is obvious Clay you're mad at the politicians...lol!
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
If Spieth isn't a handle dragger by your definition, then your definition is contrived. Name a tour player who is a handle dragger.

Personally, I think Speith has a lot of alpha late.

...rotating the top of the grip around its mid-point rotates the clubhead around that same point. You choose to use points on the grip for reference. Fine. That's where the markers are, I guess. What you are describing is just a new way to express the examination of the double pendulum action that golf scientists have been doing since Cochran and Stobbs.
No.

The double-pendulum models are a joke because of a completely circular hand path which NOBODY has.




My wrists are 100% passive.

No. Come to the lab, take a lesson and find out how wrong that is.


What is Nesbit's main finding or discovery?

You want 10 or 20?
 
Personally, I think Speith has a lot of alpha late.


No.

The double-pendulum models are a joke because of a completely circular hand path which NOBODY has.






No. Come to the lab, take a lesson and find out how wrong that is.




You want 10 or 20?

Are they similar or same as your Alpha, Beta and Gamma? (Which I agree with btw).
 
Todd, I disagree that clubhead moves same distance/speed as the top end of the grip. I think this is the exact reason why Brian defined it as it is.

And you could do something to slow down the clubhead end without slowing down the top end of grip so that you wouldn't become a handle dragger.

Brian am I correct?
 
The double-pendulum model is "joke"? It was the standard in scientific golf research for 30 years and is still very valid today. And just because your fancy machines can measure torques on the grip or wherever does NOT mean that the force powering those torques emanate from the wrists. Put PingMan in your lab. We know there is no torque applied directly to its' "hands", yet I'm sure you could measure a bunch, right?
 
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