tongzilla
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So for someone who just spent $600 on a casio recorder...is there any benefit or use with using video for golf swings?
any role left for video?
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So for someone who just spent $600 on a casio recorder...is there any benefit or use with using video for golf swings?
IMO it is ludicrous to suggest that video is a USELESS tool. LOL
Seriously, how can seeing (roughly) where everything is (I know, parallax etc etc) at various points in the swing not be useful as compared with the naked eye? Clearly 3D systems are much better and there's a wealth of information to be had from force plates and LM's but why would you not want to actually SEE something whilst looking a the data from the other devices? It has to help in the understanding of the data by the pupil, if not the teacher also.
Doctors and orthopedic surgeons would always want to examine a patient to compare the MRI pictures with the real world observations and examinations. And Brian has a Casio.
Seriously, how can seeing (roughly) where everything is (I know, parallax etc etc) at various points in the swing not be useful as compared with the naked eye? Clearly 3D systems are much better and there's a wealth of information to be had from force plates and LM's but why would you not want to actually SEE something whilst looking a the data from the other devices? It has to help in the understanding of the data by the pupil, if not the teacher also.
Doctors and orthopedic surgeons would always want to examine a patient to compare the MRI pictures with the real world observations and examinations. And Brian has a Casio.
tongzilla
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probably just uses it to record instructional videos on how to use trackman lolAnd Brian has a Casio.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Absolutely, but you have to know its severely limited on what it can show. In a typical 60 minutes lesson I'll video maybe 6 or 7 swings. Mostly look at club face, impact location, and maybe to show someone an obvious fault that shows up no matter how much parallax there is.
IMO, no match for 3D and my naked eye. I lose a lot of the sounds and overall rhythm of a swing if I look at it on video. That's why I steer away from online lessons.
IMO, no match for 3D and my naked eye. I lose a lot of the sounds and overall rhythm of a swing if I look at it on video. That's why I steer away from online lessons.
Good point about the multi perceptional aspect of just standing next to someone and teaching. Gut feeling is a wonderful tool.
However, in this respect, everything you loose with video you're gonna loose with 3D, unless I'm mistaken.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
It's only use.. I use a ueye live stream camera for just this reason and only this reason
Ah, so it's not usless after all.
Does that mean we can watch your lessons live?
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Ah, so it's not usless after all.
Does that mean we can watch your lessons live?
Ha!!! Videos use = a reference. Not an analysis tool
The industry laughs that you cannot see club numbers without Doppler radar, I agree. But! The same applies to 3d ing the body and the feet. I cannot emphasis enough the need for a kvest or amm device and a swing catalyst motion or balance plate. Until you use those with tracking radar you are just guessing. I don't guess with my customers
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Ya gonna give all those ya did guess with their money back then?
Frans@France
New
the enso system is a video system yes, using multiple camera's and infrared to trace markers but a video system....
yes, using multiple camera's and infrared to trace markers but a video system....Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Michael Finney
New
enso (and other well designed 3D video systems like them) defeat parallax and rolling shutter issues.....you just need people smart enough to interpret the data so your game will improve -
right now i would say that number is less than 3 and quite possibly 0.....in the entire world
as smart as brian is and as good of an in person teacher he is, the enormity of this avalanche of technical data is overwhelming.....we were guessing with video, we are guessing (with a little more sophistication) with 3D....
hopefully, the students will improve as we understand how to avoid the pitfalls of yesterday - by pitfalls i mean....
improving hand paths
improving force and torque directions
understanding the real world effects of adjusting one's d plane
understanding what the shaft and COGs are doing during a swing under competitive pressure
we'll always be guessing - the ones who try to educate their guesses will be ahead of the curve - guys, like michael jacobs, brian manzella, damon lucas, and kevin shields - to name a few
right now i would say that number is less than 3 and quite possibly 0.....in the entire world
as smart as brian is and as good of an in person teacher he is, the enormity of this avalanche of technical data is overwhelming.....we were guessing with video, we are guessing (with a little more sophistication) with 3D....
hopefully, the students will improve as we understand how to avoid the pitfalls of yesterday - by pitfalls i mean....
improving hand paths
improving force and torque directions
understanding the real world effects of adjusting one's d plane
understanding what the shaft and COGs are doing during a swing under competitive pressure
we'll always be guessing - the ones who try to educate their guesses will be ahead of the curve - guys, like michael jacobs, brian manzella, damon lucas, and kevin shields - to name a few
Great post.
Lindsey Newman
New
I'll take video over nothing all day long.
It's definitely more useful than a bad lesson from a bad instructor.
It's definitely more useful than a bad lesson from a bad instructor.
I started teaching with my eyes only, then video, now TRACKMAN and I'm probably better than when I started. But maybe I'd be better after 30 years of doing it anyway? I agree with Kevin and he and I have discussed it length, teaching is as much a feel as a look. I've learned a lot about impact and science through TRACKMAN and forums this, but in the end it comes down to doing it and doing it, and seeing so many swings they become a part of you. It's like high art vs paint by numbers, or as my musician friend says, it's not the notes, it's what in between the notes that makes the piece.
Generally speaking, a teacher is no better than his pupil’s ability to work and to learn. There was a young businessman at my club, Fred Ehrman, who had this ability to learn, and we did a very satisfying job together. He was a 90-shooter in April. Five months later he was playing in the 70s and won the club championship. It was no fluke.
Hogan
This with no video, no Trackman? Is technology redundant for a good teacher?
Hogan
This with no video, no Trackman? Is technology redundant for a good teacher?
Back in the old days, when video was considerably more problematic than it is now, I used to "see" (in reality it was probably more of a "sensing" using the full range of perceptional tools
available to humans) something in a swing and was confused as to why I didn't see the same thing when I looked at the video. Of course now we all know why.I understand fully why Kevin says he videos maybe 5-6 swings in an hour's lesson. A lot of the time video confuses but I'd still rather have it as an option for ascertaining some aspects which you might want to check up as part of your analysis/hypothesis regarding how a swing may be fitting together.
I honestly think that TM is pretty useless as a teaching aid for golfers who have little golfing competence. For better players, say, single figure HCPers, it is indispensable. But if ya
can't hit it ya don't need the impact data.I would say 3D/Kvest is a more useful tool for the road from incompetent to competent ball striking. Do any users of both devices agree?
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