Ball Position with Brian Manzella ARTICLE

[fronesis]

There are already good (old) threads on setup and ball position, here, and here.

My question is about the relation, if any, between ball position and distance from ball, perhaps particularly in light of any new Trackman-related knowledge. Specifically:

does it make any sense to think that as one bends over more and moves the ball further out (away from the golfer) that one would simultaneously wish to move the ball slightly further back in the stance?

One immediate and maybe even sensible response could be, "no, that's nonsense; ball position is the same regardless of how much the golfer bends over." But I have a couple of thoughts on why it might not be that simple.

1. The golfer wants to strike the ball while the clubhead is still moving down, but that means it is also still moving OUT. Thus, the ball should be placed far enough back so that the clubhead reaches the ball BEFORE it has moved as far out as it can go (obviously the driver is an exception, but let's think 6 iron here). If one stands very close to the ball, it's easier to extend out further with the arms. But with the Manzella setup suggested in the threads above, there's not much further to reach (one is already bent well over with the ball well away from you). So wouldn't you want to make sure that the ball is just a little bit (an inch) back so that you hit it on the way OUT?

2. I struggle against the tendency to stand too upright, too close to the ball, and to time the flip. So it really helps me to make sure I bend over and keep the ball the proper distance away from me, because then I'm not rewarded by flipping. But I also find that when I stand too close to the ball I also play the ball very far forward (this makes sense; it gives me ROOM to flip at it). So when I adjust properly and move the ball further away from me but keep the ball well forward, then I just can't reach the ball before low point. I either hit it fat (even without flipping) or I lunge for the ball. If I move the ball back a bit (and I'm talking mainly about mid and short irons here, not long irons and fairway woods and definitely not the driver) then I can still get the ball on the way down and out.

Just wondering if that makes actual golf sense, or if it's just a nice story I'm telling myself.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Old School....New School....

There are already good (old) threads on setup and ball position...

I went back and read them, and got indigestion.

does it make any sense to think that as one bends over more and moves the ball further out (away from the golfer) that one would simultaneously wish to move the ball slightly further back in the stance?

Yes.

 

[Brian Manzella]

ARTCLE: Ball Position and Aim in 2009

Once upon a time, we taught folks a very far forward ball position on every shot.

It worked MUCH BETTER—with all the rest of the components we favored way back then—than moving the ball back like some folks though was best.

There were some great debates on the subject.

Both of these "camps' also taught everyone to aim at the target.

We were closer then them. (I knew that of course )

Here are some new Manzella Matrix terminology:

AIM LINE: Where you are aiming

SWING LINE: Where you are swinging. (i.e.Plane Line, Horizontal Swing Plane)

RESULTANT PATH: The 2D to the ground path of the club. (after all of the math)

CLUBFACE ANGLE: The 2D to the ground position of the clubface, 90° to the score lines.​

Got it?

Good.

You have to SWING LEFT for shots hit off the ground. Period.

We were right about that. (We knew that too)

You have to aim right for shots hit on the way up on a tee. (Nobody knew that, and we were wrong on hitting down with a driver. They were too.)

So, if you were aiming straight (we all were), and you moved the ball back as the clubs get shorter, you were dead in the water if you didn't swing WAY LEFT of were you were aiming (they didn't).

Now, you could do what "they" were saying if you wanted to hit HOOKED short irons, but, at the better player level, you were DEAD IN THE WATER.

With our forward ball position, and setting up with "mid-body" hands, if we swung left enough, we could hit it straight.

Good luck.

The proper way to hit it straight is....

Off a medium tee, with a 3-wood, you would hit the ball dead level. Nither up or down on it.

You'd aim and swing straight, have the clubface square and "right down Main Street."

For each club with more loft than the 3-wood, off the ground, you'd move th ball back about a half-inch a club, and aim more and more left.

You'd do the opposite with the driver.



NOW....

For ball positions with the "Manzella Matrix" Patterns, or your own custom pattern, which may or may not be "zeroed out"....

That's much harder.

If you hit a draw or a fade, just remember, no mater what you are doing now, you ought to fudge left and back with shorter clubs, and right and up with the longer ones.

But, it is not a "sure thing," because you likely have a dozen compensations built in, and this all may "spoil the soup."

 

[cmartingolf]

Kind of remind you of something?

 

[fronesis]

Thanks for the clarification article, Brian. VERY helpful, as always!


And to cmartin...

Kind of remind you of something?

Yes, indeed!

While it's more than obvious that after 50 years, there are some things in Hogan's book that we now know aren't quite right, and while you have to read it with the recognition that it teaches a swing designed to avoid hitting it left at all costs and programmed for someone who can *really* square the clubface....we should never forget what an amazing piece of golf isntruction it really is. Most players today, if they had to pick one piece of golf instruction, could do FAR worse than 5 lessons (just ask Larry Nelson).

 

[Scottgas2]

One could say that with the short irons and wedges Hogan was aligned left. Both toes are not on a straightaway line until the medium irons, and start to go right with the long irons and woods. Just as Brian says above.

 

[fronesis]

One could say that with the short irons and wedges Hogan was aligned left. Both toes are not on a straightaway line until the medium irons, and start to go right with the long irons and woods. Just as Brian says above.

Right. I think that was exactly cmartin's point in posting the Hogan graphic. (And all I was saying is that despite other flaws, Hogan's book is still a brilliant piece of golf instruction.)

As Brian has said before, a lot of pros have intuitively understood the D plane long before he got the measurements necessary to gain clear knowledge about it. It looks like Hogan may have understood it extremely well, since he saw the need to shift the plane left for shorter irons and right for the driver.

 

[mrose]

Once upon a time, we taught folks a very far forward ball position on every shot.

It worked MUCH BETTER—with all the rest of the components we favored way back then—than moving the ball back like some folks though was best.

There were some great debates on the subject.

Both of these "camps' also taught everyone to aim at the target.

We were closer then them. (I knew that of course )

Here are some new Manzella Matrix terminology:

AIM LINE: Where you are aiming

SWING LINE: Where you are swinging. (i.e.Plane Line, Horizontal Swing Plane)

RESULTANT PATH: The 2D to the ground path of the club. (after all of the math)

CLUBFACE ANGLE: The 2D to the ground position of the clubface, 90° to the score lines.​

Got it?

Good.

You have to SWING LEFT for shots hit off the ground. Period.

We were right about that. (We knew that too)

You have to aim right for shots hit on the way up on a tee. (Nobody knew that, and we were wrong on hitting down with a driver. They were too.)

So, if you were aiming straight (we all were), and you moved the ball back as the clubs get shorter, you were dead in the water if you didn't swing WAY LEFT of were you were aiming (they didn't).

Now, you could do what "they" were saying if you wanted to hit HOOKED short irons, but, at the better player level, you were DEAD IN THE WATER.

With our forward ball position, and setting up with "mid-body" hands, if we swung left enough, we could hit it straight.

Good luck.

The proper way to hit it straight is....

Off a medium tee, with a 3-wood, you would hit the ball dead level. Nither up or down on it.

You'd aim and swing straight, have the clubface square and "right down Main Street."

For each club with more loft than the 3-wood, off the ground, you'd move th ball back about a half-inch a club, and aim more and more left.

You'd do the opposite with the driver.



NOW....

For ball positions with the "Manzella Matrix" Patterns, or your own custom pattern, which may or may not be "zeroed out"....

That's much harder.

If you hit a draw or a fade, just remember, no mater what you are doing now, you ought to fudge left and back with shorter clubs, and right and up with the longer ones.

But, it is not a "sure thing," because you likely have a dozen compensations built in, and this all may "spoil the soup."

this is great stuff.

my miss has always been a slight pull down the left tree line and just because it might draw a few yards i'd call myself a hooker. i could never get myself to aim right (or even right centre) because i was convinced that if i aimed right i'd put a stronger and more confident swing on it, get through it better, and hit straight shots into the rough or trees right. i aim down the left side and try to play a fade and my stubborn nature has kept me from changing. my good shots might actually be bad shots from a technical point of view (even though with good results if that makes sense) in that they must have been slight blocks.

now that aiming right with driver makes perfect sense i can't wait to get out there again.

you'd think i'd be golfed out after 36 hole div 1 southern pennant finals today. we lost 6.5 - 0.5. i won the last hole to get that half with a 184 yard 5 iron using a slightly left base line, slightly less left clubface, and slightly downward angle of attack. 2 or 3 yard fade to 5 feet in front of a crowd. apologies for the boasting but we love these moments don't we. and we love that the right information means we can do it again all else being equal.