Ball to turf compression (or lack thereof) and short pitch shots

[mrose]

I remember it was established fairly conclusively a while back that there is no such thing as compressing the ball against the ground. If that is the case I'm interested in the vastly different trajectory of a ball from a tight, dry and firm fairway as compared to sitting up in soft wet grass. With the latter there is no compression at impact when hitting a small pitch shot and it's very easy to hit a shot that goes nowhere even if it feels like good contact is made.

My guess at this is that from a tight lie even though there is no compression of ball against turf the ball will spend more time on the grooves because the club is kept close to the ball once it strikes the turf. The club bounces or slides along the turf and compression will be slightly, if only fractionally, longer. When hitting a ball purched up on the grass the blow is very much a glancing blow with very little compression.

I've found it's better to play the shot sitting up in the rough with a neutral path and not cutting across it and also to feel as if I'm hitting it very level if not slightly hitting up on it. This gives a really nice strike on the sweet spot. The hitting up counteracts the driving or forwards momentum of not cutting across it and helps to find the sweet spot better instead of sliding under it. In other words, I feel like this way I get a shot that is closer to the natural flight of the particular club as opposed to one that is low and weak.

The obvious reply would be to say that out of the rough you are getting grass in the grooves but I think there is more to it than that. Especially since sometimes the ball can sit cleanly on top of the rough.

I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks about these two very different lies and the reaction of the ball.

 

[Kevin Shields]

The shot hit off hardpan is hit low on the face making it fly lower and spin more. You can get the same reaction from the other lie it just usually doesnt shake out that way.

 

[mrose]

The shot hit off hardpan is hit low on the face making it fly lower and spin more. You can get the same reaction from the other lie it just usually doesnt shake out that way.

As an extreme example: tee up a lob wedge half an inch or so, could you hit a low spinner from here using the same angle of attack as you would off a tight lie?

 

[SJO]

I think that's a good question. In Bermuda especially you get those lies where the ball is almost teed up and you can't get the same strike as off a tight lie.

 

[Joe Duffer]

You're right, the ball doesn't actually compress against a firmer lie, but the sole (bounce) of the wedge does.

 

[JonWil]

Very interesting question. I have continually struggled with fluffy lies from the rough resulting in shots much shorter than planned. I would love to know how to properly strike the ball when facing this type of lie.

 

[softconsult]

"You're right, the ball doesn't actually compress against a firmer lie, but the sole (bounce) of the wedge does".

The sole is compressed by contact with the ground? Highly unlikely. Actually, impossible, unless you smack an rock imbedded in the dirt.
Maybe you said it wrong.

 

[cnadon]

how to play it?

Very interesting question. I have continually struggled with fluffy lies from the rough resulting in shots much shorter than planned. I would love to know how to properly strike the ball when facing this type of lie.

I get this lie all the time. The ball sits up on thick bermuda around the green almost like it's on one of those bristle tees. I usually put it in the back of the stance and try to play a low pitch with some spin. Can't say it's been very successful. What's the better way to handle this lie?

 

[Joe Duffer]

"You're right, the ball doesn't actually compress against a firmer lie, but the sole (bounce) of the wedge does".

The sole is compressed by contact with the ground? Highly unlikely. Actually, impossible, unless you smack an rock imbedded in the dirt.
Maybe you said it wrong.

Soft,

The sole (bounce) can rebound a bit off a firm/tite lie... this doesn't happen on a fluffy lie.

 

[softconsult]

I'm just picking at what you said. Compress, no. Rebound, I can sort of buy that, but the ball is already gone, no?

As has already been said, it is more an issue of where the ball contacts the face.

 

[mrose]

I'm just picking at what you said. Compress, no. Rebound, I can sort of buy that, but the ball is already gone, no?

As has already been said, it is more an issue of where the ball contacts the face.

You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. Off a tight lie the bounce and strike will often be at the same time. I think that extra speed and ball on face time results in the low spinner. Perhaps you haven't experienced the low spinner that shoots off the face quickly. This never happens from a fluffy lie even when the whole ball is exposed. It might come out spinny but not with the same speed and force.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Friday I will post Trackman numbers on pitch shots hit off tile floor vs. off a tee. Is there any particular distance shot we're talking about?

 

[mrose]

Friday I will post Trackman numbers on pitch shots hit off tile floor vs. off a tee. Is there any particular distance shot we're talking about?

Thanks Kevin. About 30-40 yards would be great. The results will only be of worth if the tile floor shots come off with the low spinny flight we're referring to. A tile floor might cause too much bounce and the clubface might not be stable enough to hit low enough on the ball and compress it against the lower grooves. I've never come across that lie before though so I could be wrong.

 

[savydan]

I get this lie all the time. The ball sits up on thick bermuda around the green almost like it's on one of those bristle tees. I usually put it in the back of the stance and try to play a low pitch with some spin. Can't say it's been very successful. What's the better way to handle this lie?

That's basically how I play it too. Downward blow. Square face. A little out-to-in path.

That's also the only way I've found to play it when the ball settles down into that brillo pad bermuda. Pain in the arse.

 

[softconsult]

"You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. Off a tight lie the bounce and strike will often be at the same time. I think that extra speed and ball on face time results in the low spinner. Perhaps you haven't experienced the low spinner that shoots off the face quickly. "

I will await Kevin's test. Funny, how communication works. I contested the idea that the ground compressed the sole of an iron club. I end a sentence with no, as in no? I get, "You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. I said the ball had gone, he says I'm right and the ball hasn't gone.

Next we have the idea that extra speed and ball on face time results in low spinner. Where did the extra speed factor come into the equation? What extra speed? What does a tight lie have to do with clubhead speed?

Yes, I have experienced the low spinner, and I have experienced the floating lie situation. You watch the Tour Players blow that floating lie shot from time to time. Johnny Miller says, "I don't understand it. Can't they see that the ball is 1/2" of the ground? Why don't they choke up?" I do try to choke up, but still blow it much of the time.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I will hit a low spinner off hardpan (tile) and try to reproduce the same shot off a tee. 30-40 yds

 

[Joe Duffer]

I will await Kevin's test. Funny, how communication works. I contested the idea that the ground compressed the sole of an iron club. I end a sentence with no, as in no? I get, "You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. I said the ball had gone, he says I'm right and the ball hasn't gone.

Maybe he thought you were French, no?

 

[mrose]

"You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. Off a tight lie the bounce and strike will often be at the same time. I think that extra speed and ball on face time results in the low spinner. Perhaps you haven't experienced the low spinner that shoots off the face quickly. "

I will await Kevin's test. Funny, how communication works. I contested the idea that the ground compressed the sole of an iron club. I end a sentence with no, as in no? I get, "You're right, no the ball hasn't gone. I said the ball had gone, he says I'm right and the ball hasn't gone.

Next we have the idea that extra speed and ball on face time results in low spinner. Where did the extra speed factor come into the equation? What extra speed? What does a tight lie have to do with clubhead speed?

Yes, I have experienced the low spinner, and I have experienced the floating lie situation. You watch the Tour Players blow that floating lie shot from time to time. Johnny Miller says, "I don't understand it. Can't they see that the ball is 1/2" of the ground? Why don't they choke up?" I do try to choke up, but still blow it much of the time.

My reply was tongue in cheek, I know what you were getting at. By finishing with "no?" you are basically saying "or am I wrong?" to which I suggested that yes, you're right, you were wrong. All just my opinion of course.

 

[cmartingolf]

mrose,

My two cents and I'm looking forward to Kevin's research:

Hardpan: you know (subconscious or not) that you have to hit the ball on the way down or you will hit it fat. Thus, you have some forward lean and less loft at impact. The descending blow presents the upper edge of the groove to the ball. The groove itself doesn't spin the ball the edge of the groove does.

Perched in the grass: You hit it higher on the face because you can scoop it a little. The edge of the groove doesn't dig into the ball as drastically and you likely got some moisture between the ball and face (grass guts).

 

[softconsult]

My reply was tongue in cheek, I know what you were getting at. By finishing with "no?" you are basically saying "or am I wrong?" to which I suggested that yes, you're right, you were wrong. All just my opinion of course.

My last response to this linguistic exercise. If I say, the sun is really bright, no? The no means, "I'm sure you will agree with me".