Beyond the lesson tee

[sharkey35]

So, I'd like to think I'm not one of those guys discussed by SteveT. I started playing in my 20's, but kind of think of my golf life in two stages, pre-Manzella/Jacobs and post. I never thought a tip or new piece of equipment would make me good. I tried lessons, but was frustrated by what I got. Found this site and have seen Brian every time he has been near NYC in the last 4 years. I also try to check in with Mike J. when I can, but work and family and 100 miles of congested highway prevent visits as frequently as I'd like.

I joined a club this year and that gave me access to a grass range and practice green. Still had a totally frustrating season. Still a 12 h-cap. People say I should be lower, I think its b/c my swing looks fairly orthodox. But it gets a little tiring hearing doubts about my index. I once started a thread asking about keys to break 80 and I didn't even sniff it this year.

I did reflect and grade aspects of my game. Driving C-, too many rounds with at least one drive that cost shots. Hybrids B, pretty reasonable results most of the time. Mid irons to 9 iron B, again pretty good results. Wedge play C, shots within 125 give me fits. Short game (chipping, pitching, putting) B, not too bad.

My goal has always been to get to a single digit cap. I like to think I'm pretty knowledgeable compared to a lot of players, but I'm kind of lost on where to go from here.

The information and lessons I got from Brian and Mike are second to none. I guess I'm looking on suggestions of how to play the game better. I obviously need more than lessons on a pratice range.

Maybe a useless thread, I realize. But maybe not. Any experiences of what people have done to get to the next level would be appreciated. If nothing else, thanks for listening. This game can get a hold of ya.

 

[aaron_lohan]

So, I'd like to think I'm not one of those guys discussed by SteveT. I started playing in my 20's, but kind of think of my golf life in two stages, pre-Manzella/Jacobs and post. I never thought a tip or new piece of equipment would make me good. I tried lessons, but was frustrated by what I got. Found this site and have seen Brian every time he has been near NYC in the last 4 years. I also try to check in with Mike J. when I can, but work and family and 100 miles of congested highway prevent visits as frequently as I'd like.

I joined a club this year and that gave me access to a grass range and practice green. Still had a totally frustrating season. Still a 12 h-cap. People say I should be lower, I think its b/c my swing looks fairly orthodox. But it gets a little tiring hearing doubts about my index. I once started a thread asking about keys to break 80 and I didn't even sniff it this year.

I did reflect and grade aspects of my game. Driving C-, too many rounds with at least one drive that cost shots. Hybrids B, pretty reasonable results most of the time. Mid irons to 9 iron B, again pretty good results. Wedge play C, shots within 125 give me fits. Short game (chipping, pitching, putting) B, not too bad.

My goal has always been to get to a single digit cap. I like to think I'm pretty knowledgeable compared to a lot of players, but I'm kind of lost on where to go from here.

The information and lessons I got from Brian and Mike are second to none. I guess I'm looking on suggestions of how to play the game better. I obviously need more than lessons on a pratice range.

Maybe a useless thread, I realize. But maybe not. Any experiences of what people have done to get to the next level would be appreciated. If nothing else, thanks for listening. This game can get a hold of ya.

Compete a lot, try to keep double bogeys off the card, hit more 3 woods off the tee rather than drivers.

 

[aaron_lohan]

And the obvious work on your short game, get some instruction on that area.

 

[natep]

Short game.

Try to become a virtuoso from 125 yards in.

If you can get up and down most of the time from that range you can hack it all over the course and still score great.

Then on your good days you'll be threatening the course record!

 

[ZAP]

Sounds like you are missing a feel for the game a little bit. As might be expected from someone who started later in life. I started at 15 and feel sometimes it was too late. The only thing I had going for me at 15 was that I was really small so I had to figure out how to make a score without the ability to over power any golf hole.

Sometimes I get stuck in the notion that unless I play perfect I will not make a good score when deep down I know that is nonsense.

My only advice to you is to play a few rounds with only a couple of clubs in the bag. I mean literally carry only two or three. For me it helps me realize that there is more than one way to get the job done and getting the ball in the hole is really all that matters.

The other thing I like to do to improve my feel for the game is to play holes that do not exist when the course is empty. Like playing from number three tee to 15 green or whatever. It kind of helps me see options.

It sounds like you are going the right direction. Try to not focus on score so much because when it comes down to it no one really cares but you. I know it sounds blunt but it is true. Play golf like no one ever thought about what par meant. It is more fun.

 

[SteveT]

So, I'd like to think I'm not one of those guys discussed by SteveT. I started playing in my 20's, but kind of think of my golf life in two stages, pre-Manzella/Jacobs and post........

Since you specifically mention me, may I give you my opinion ... and then you can tell everybody you have reached a new stage, a new peak ... the "SteveT Plateau" ...!!!!

I started golf seriously in my late 40's and peaked a decade later playing very much like you. Since I don't have any more time for improvement, and you do, here is what I would suggest.

1. Try to play a lot of solo golf, in the evenings when the course may be empty and playing until it's dark. Trying to improve while you play with buddies and following only one ball will defeat you. Hit at least 2 balls off the tee, and then drop more balls for approach shots. In one session, I hit 16 balls to an empty green .. and even intentionally hit into bunkers for more practice. You will lose balls, but that's the price of learning on your own.

2. Become an expert on the putting green, which should be easy enough to do since you only have to roll a ball. Much of what you learn for putting is trial and error and if you are putting a dozen balls on each green, you will have stored a lot of judgment errors. Practice your putting stroke at home on a level carpet so that part of your game is secure.

4. Establish a short game from 150 yards in, and walk the course with only a 6,7 or 8 iron, a sand wedge and multiple balls ... in evening solo sessions of perhaps one hour. You will be surprised how many holes you can complete if you are active. Make it a 'workout' session and do it several times weekly.

5. Establish your long game on the driving range, not on the golf course. After you have some control of your long clubs take them on the course and see if you can put together a game. If you play with 4 balls, will you be able to play par with one of the balls?

To go from your 12 hdcp (which puts you in the top 2% of golfers worldwide) down to single digit hdcp will require a very big commitment in time, practice and lessons ... money too. Good luck...

 

[golfdad]

we can safely assume that every time when you go play golf, if your golf coaches (brian et al) follow you around and give you instant feedback and fixes, then you can improve much faster.

so the question and the problem is, when they are not around, what do you need to do?

what/who provides feedback to you, on situations that you cannot possibly sense or see in real time, or even remember after a day or two?

my own feeling is that you need to learn to keep an eye on yourself. document in a little book on shots made, good or bad,,if bad, how, in which way did the way go, etc. after the round, review the data and look for issues and trends. pain in the neck, i know, but, practice is hard and getting better "on your own" is tough. to play at a higher level, there is work to be done. for instance, reading your first post may not provide your teachers things concrete enough for you to work on. but if you have your stats handy, they can have a much better pic immediately and their response to you, even over the phone, can be more helpful.

if the set-up can be arranged, tape your swing very often. learn to study your own swing and consult with others.

what you have learned in golf lessons, no matter how good, is one thing. to be able to consistently stick to the essence of the lessons in the changing environments back home is another. try to be more proactive and adapt. good luck and have fun.

 

[Brian Manzella]

3 things to do to improve your game, if your swing is pretty good

1. Playing Lessons

2. Play one shot around the course, eliminating one side of it.

3. A high-end fitting and set of clubs.

 

[sharkey35]

Thanks for the replies. With regard to the playing lessons, should the pro play too? It would seem wierd to drive around in a cart (for one thing, I walk) having someone watch you play golf. It would take longer, but I'm thinking a kind of scramble with the pro playing from the same spots into the hole could be cool. Put some pressure on the pro too.

 

[Ringer]

Irons, irons, irons.

Get your mid to low irons in that 30 foot range of the hole and you'll have no choice but to shoot in the 70's. Even with one or two bad drives or difficulties getting up and down, good iron play will give you chances for birdie to make up for bad holes, and put back into play if you're in the rough.

 

[SteveT]

Irons, irons, irons.

Get your mid to low irons in that 30 foot range of the hole and you'll have no choice but to shoot in the 70's. Even with one or two bad drives or difficulties getting up and down, good iron play will give you chances for birdie to make up for bad holes, and put back into play if you're in the rough.

Where do you recommend the mid to low irons be practiced? I find it difficult to practice those clubs on the practice range, but not on the golf course ... with solo golf of course. Conversely, I find it most productive practicing with the driver at the driving range and not the golf course. I tee up several balls and whack them in succession ... which provides me with a solid training session swinging the driver. However, that's just me ...

 

[softconsult]

I've got to ask.

Specifically, what do you think is happening from 125 in that doesn't happen from say 125 to 160?
Very puzzling that 9 iron is good, and wedges bad.

You gave yourself a C- for Driver play, and said that at least once a round your Driver costs you strokes.
I float around between 78 and 84, and would love it if I only missed one Driver a round. The trick is learning
how to recover from those inevitable bad Drives, and not shoot a large number on the hole.

You say you didn't sniff breaking 80 this season, but carry a 12 handicap. That means that you are on
average you are shooting 84. So an average 3 shot improvement gets you to a 9. Sure sounds like if
you zero in on fixing your wedge play, you will be there. That of course assumes some other aspect
doesn't go south. It's a lot easier to go from 20 to 12, than from 12 to 9.

SteveT talked about finding it difficult to practice mid to low irons on the practice tee and his preference for
practicing Drivers from the practice tee. Just my opinion, but I find the exact opposite to be true.
I have always liked to practice. A high percentage of my practice time is 8 iron to Sand Wedge. Those are my
scoring clubs. Nothing difficult about it, assuming you have grass tees and some targets out in the range.

I think practicing Drivers out on the course is superior to the range in this regard. Brings in the reality
of trees, lakes, rough. Learning to control your mind from the tee is the challenge. Driving range presents no
penalties. I do think that, as with the scoring clubs, you need the repetitions on the range.

 

[sharkey35]

With regard to the driver, I usually have one miss that results in a penalty (hazard or ob), in addition to misses meaning the rough.

I wish I could figure out the darn wedge thing. I just feel like I have no feel at all with my wedges. Even when I hit them well, the flight is different from my other irons. Half shots are usually big trouble. Maybe I try to manipulate the club or something because the flight looks different, I honestly don't know.

Given the responses, this is what I'm thinking. Get out on the course early next year and have someone watch me from 125 and in. Hit a bunch of shots and see if there is a glaring issue. If that doesn't work, enlist my son to video some swings and hope Brian gets that remote lesson thing going by next year.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Ringer]

Where do you recommend the mid to low irons be practiced? I find it difficult to practice those clubs on the practice range, but not on the golf course ... with solo golf of course. Conversely, I find it most productive practicing with the driver at the driving range and not the golf course. I tee up several balls and whack them in succession ... which provides me with a solid training session swinging the driver. However, that's just me ...

I find most people do not practice appropriately on the range. They may hit a few balls here and there at various targets, but don't progress through the whole bag nor do they do anything to actually practice face control. They make no attempt to vary their shots, cut, draw, high, low.. etc. One of the best exercises is to try and hit your 5 iron at the 100 yard marker. I have witnessed only 1 person ever do this on the range except for me, and he played on the Canadian tour.

If you can learn face control of the irons, your driver isn't that far behind. You just have to slow it down and not go for max distance all the time. I'd rather be 260 in the fairway than 310 in the woods.

 

[golfdad]

I wish I could figure out the darn wedge thing. I just feel like I have no feel at all with my wedges. Even when I hit them well, the flight is different from my other irons. Half shots are usually big trouble. Maybe I try to manipulate the club or something because the flight looks different, I honestly don't know.

for instance, even now, you can go to a heated or indoor place and swing a series of wedges,,,but dictated by distance.

do a shot at what you think will go to 20 yards, 25, 30, 35, 40,,,,,all the way up to 80-100.

you put that on video and link it to someone who knows what to look for, i bet they can spot issues immediately.

when my kids were working on these issues, i find that with partial wedges, the biggest issue is tempo. it is like they think, since the swing is partial, they have to swing faster to make up for the difference or something, things intellectually do not make sense, but in reality they do and we do all the time because o flack of awareness. thus contact is poor, direction poor. without a good tempo, it feels like you surprise yourself each time and then you develop confidence issues, as if anticipating problems ahead of time. look at the tape yourself can even reveal issues.

 

[softconsult]

If it were me, I would spend the winter fixing the problem. Like GolfDad said, I would think you can find
some sort of heated range. I was out hitting balls here in Tennessee on Saturday in 38 degree weather with
no problem other than sweating.

I'll bet that if you posted up a video of this wedge swing, the folks here could give you some pretty good advice
about what you are doing wrong with the wedges.

Toward the end of the 2009 season, I was making myself really crazy with chunked short pitches. I hooked
up with Brian in Louisville. At the end of our 2 hour session, we went to the practice green to address this
issue. 3 swings. Brian said , "Popout". I adjusted, and it was fixed. I then spent the entire winter practicing
chipping and pitching. The result was massively improved results this season in that area.

 

[sharkey35]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. There is a heated range nearby and this weekend is supposed to be nice, so maybe I can post up a few swings. I think there is also a Trackman there, so maybe some numbers might tell the story.