Byron Morgan Putters
- Thread starter mgranato
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adamscot89
New
These putters are AWESOME!!! They are very similar to Scotty Cameron's only handcrafted. Very soft with a great feel. They are pretty expensive but you can get a putter built that is exactly what you want for around $400.
mgranato
New
For the better part of this year, all I’ve been able to swing has been the putter. I’ve spent that time learning as much as I can about the tool and the stroke and my tendencies with both. Here’s what I’ve got so far…
Aim – From using lasers and monitors I’ve learned that I had a natural tendency to aim left with the putter I used last year ( TM Spider, double bend shaft, with the long “alignment lines”). Oddly enough, with a center shafted mallet I aim slightly to the right. With a heel shafted blade putter with no dots or lines, I aim almost straight with a slight bias to the left. With a Anser style with no dots or lines, I am dead straight 94% of the time. Over several sessions, I would measure my aim with different putter styles and combinations of alignment lines from 5’, 15’, and 20’. Chart everything to learn how I saw “straight” from putter to putter.
Loft – From high speed video, my impact angle produced the best roll with lower lofted putters (1.5-2.5 degrees).
Lie – My forearm hangs naturally in gravity at 18* from plumb. When standing relaxed, our upper arms (shoulder to elbow) hang plumb, but the forearm to wrist hangs at an angle to the upper arm. Everyone’s angle can be different. Not wanting to fight gravity when putting, I want my upper arm to hang naturally in gravity/plumb. So I want my putter lie angle to match the 18* angle my forearm naturally hangs from. I need a putter with a 72* lie angle. Mangum’s “zig,zag,zig,zag” idea.
Head weight – The most comfortable weight for me is in the 355g -365g range. I seem to feel the putter head better in this range.
Toe hang – Understanding that “faced balanced” and “toe heavy” are just two sides of the same coin, and that neither favors/promotes/helps a SBST or arc stroke, my face angle at impact was the same (with very little exception) regardless of putter or toe hang.
So With all that in mind, I’m looking for an Anser style head, sight dot only, +/- 2* of loft, 72* lie, 360ish head weight, plumbers neck long enough to get a toe hang between 3:30-4:30 with a total length of 35”.
Aim – From using lasers and monitors I’ve learned that I had a natural tendency to aim left with the putter I used last year ( TM Spider, double bend shaft, with the long “alignment lines”). Oddly enough, with a center shafted mallet I aim slightly to the right. With a heel shafted blade putter with no dots or lines, I aim almost straight with a slight bias to the left. With a Anser style with no dots or lines, I am dead straight 94% of the time. Over several sessions, I would measure my aim with different putter styles and combinations of alignment lines from 5’, 15’, and 20’. Chart everything to learn how I saw “straight” from putter to putter.
Loft – From high speed video, my impact angle produced the best roll with lower lofted putters (1.5-2.5 degrees).
Lie – My forearm hangs naturally in gravity at 18* from plumb. When standing relaxed, our upper arms (shoulder to elbow) hang plumb, but the forearm to wrist hangs at an angle to the upper arm. Everyone’s angle can be different. Not wanting to fight gravity when putting, I want my upper arm to hang naturally in gravity/plumb. So I want my putter lie angle to match the 18* angle my forearm naturally hangs from. I need a putter with a 72* lie angle. Mangum’s “zig,zag,zig,zag” idea.
Head weight – The most comfortable weight for me is in the 355g -365g range. I seem to feel the putter head better in this range.
Toe hang – Understanding that “faced balanced” and “toe heavy” are just two sides of the same coin, and that neither favors/promotes/helps a SBST or arc stroke, my face angle at impact was the same (with very little exception) regardless of putter or toe hang.
So With all that in mind, I’m looking for an Anser style head, sight dot only, +/- 2* of loft, 72* lie, 360ish head weight, plumbers neck long enough to get a toe hang between 3:30-4:30 with a total length of 35”.
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jeffy
Banned
Can you elaborate a bit on why a face-balanced putter and one with toe-hang are "just two sides of the same coin"?
I'll be interested in what M has to say, but in my case it's a matter of just how "flimsy" your grip is on the putter. I can make a toe-hanging putter move just like a face-balanced one thru impact if I have a "reasonable" grip on the putter. Using a shoulder stroke with reasonable grip strength I have no problem interchanging a Bobby Grace Amazing Grace with a Scotty Cameron Sante Fe.
At such low speeds I think we get too wrapped up in what a heel or face balanced putter will do.
At such low speeds I think we get too wrapped up in what a heel or face balanced putter will do.
mgranato
New
"Face balanced" has kind of morphed into being synonymous with a neutral hanging face. Because of this, the popular notion is that a face balanced putter favors a stroke that tries to move straight with no face rotation. The reality is these putters are only balance in the horizontal plane, have toe hang (3:00), and by design will not swing neutral and square.
"Toe Hang" has kind of morphed into being synonymous with a rotational face bias lending itself to an arcing shaped stroke. The rub here is that the toe does open and close, but in the exact opposite way of the popular "toe flow" idea. The heavier toe creates "toe tow". Without manipulations and compensations, the extra mass in the toe area causes it to lag closed on the backswing and lag open on the forward swing. Both face balanced and toe hanging putters do this, one is just a little more pronounced.
SBST and arcing proponents teach having the face square to the path. If that's the goal, then why would a design that works against this be considered a benefit to either shape? As a practical matter, we are just dealing with grams not pounds. So overcoming these design hurdles is easily enough done with a little extra grip pressure.
There are a few "reality balanced" putters out there that have a toe pointing to 12:00. Design wise, a totally unbiased hanging face would be the most neutral putter for any stroke shape or rotation preference.
jeffy
Banned
I don't understand the "toe tow" argument for a toe-heavy putter: wouldn't the heavier toe tend to close the face, more so than a face-balanced putter, if gravity initiated the downstroke, as Geoff Mangum advocates? If, on the other hand, the player pulls the handle in the downstroke, dragging the putterhead, I'd think that any putter would have "toe tow", or lag open.
mgranato
New
With the extra mass in the toe area, the toe will be the last to move (lag behind) on the backstroke - the lighter heel goes first. As the putter reaches the end of the backstroke, the heel slows down and stops, but the heavier toe continues on past the heel opening the face to the path. From the top, the lighter heel is again the first to move/fall on the downstroke. The heavier toe lags behind causing the face to open even more. The toe continues to lag behind the heel (well past low point) until the heel slows down and eventually stops at the top of the through swing. The toe then passes the heel to close the face to the path. The heavy toe does close the face, but only after the lighter heel stops moving. Keeping in mind this is just how the design "causes" the putter to move without any interference from the puttee.
A good analogy would be weighting a driver. All things being equal, adding more weight to the toe slows down the toe or cause it to lag behind. Taking weight out of the toe (adding to the heel) increases the rotation or lags the heel. I'm bad enough to still be able to hook a toe weighted driver, but what I'm essentially doing is towing the toe. If I just let the toe flow without any help, I'd be out in right field.
A good analogy would be weighting a driver. All things being equal, adding more weight to the toe slows down the toe or cause it to lag behind. Taking weight out of the toe (adding to the heel) increases the rotation or lags the heel. I'm bad enough to still be able to hook a toe weighted driver, but what I'm essentially doing is towing the toe. If I just let the toe flow without any help, I'd be out in right field.
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jeffy
Banned
OK, in other words, the toe-heavy putter would naturally swing shut to open, left to its own devices. I guess a reasonable hypothesis as to why a toe-heavy putter is favored by those with an arc stroke is because the heavier toe is easier to feel.
With regards to the driver, I think that the "weight-on-the-toe-keeps-the-clubface-open" theory is a myth, or at least vastly over-rated. Much more important, I believe, is that the extra weight on the toe shifts the center of gravity (COG) from the center of the clubface towards the toe. As a consequence, balls hit in the center of the clubface are "heeled", relative to the COG, and the resulting gear effect from the off-center hit imparts slice spin. I guess your shut face overwhelms the gear effect.
mgranato
New
From my own experience with the guys who like an arcing path, I'd say 90% + say they use a toe heavy putter because they believe it promotes the "toe flow" effect they think helps their stroke. It's just one of those myths that's been around for so long.
I think what you said about the feel of the toe is more accurate, at least on a subconscious level. Good astute putters probably feel "a movement". I also think part of it is, blade and Anser style putters just look better to a wider audience, and the simpler designs are usually easier to aim.
I believe you're dead on about the driver weighting deal at the post production stage. Owning both "tour" heads and retail heads, biases can definitely be engineered to favor a flight, but strapping some tape on the heel/toe is a different story like you mentioned. I don't recall the exact number of grams required to start effecting the weight bias, but it would be quite a gob of tape.
Are you still rolling your Gauge/Whitlam?
I think what you said about the feel of the toe is more accurate, at least on a subconscious level. Good astute putters probably feel "a movement". I also think part of it is, blade and Anser style putters just look better to a wider audience, and the simpler designs are usually easier to aim.
I believe you're dead on about the driver weighting deal at the post production stage. Owning both "tour" heads and retail heads, biases can definitely be engineered to favor a flight, but strapping some tape on the heel/toe is a different story like you mentioned. I don't recall the exact number of grams required to start effecting the weight bias, but it would be quite a gob of tape.
Are you still rolling your Gauge/Whitlam?
jeffy
Banned
Nitwit is a big fan of lead tape on his drivers. He had a Krank driver that was so much fade biased he loaded it up towards the heel, believe it or not.
The first Gauge by David Whitlam I had worked great (black with a yellow site dot), but I retired it for an authentic Gauge Japan version that is more or less identical spec wise, but silver with a white site dot (I think; the dot may be red...). Both are pretty much copies of a 36" Ping Anser I took out to the practice green in 1980 and kept in my bag until I got the Whitlam a few years ago.
mgranato
New
You ever seen that driver? Gave him a hard time for buying that thing. I can definitely believe he loaded it up with tape. He's old school - and a hoot.
The Japanese models are sweeeet.
mgranato
New
Read that whole discussion a couple weeks ago. Actually, I tried to read it all. A lot of the back and forth between those two makes my head itch - way above my comprehension level. Lots of good stuff though.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
The best handcrafted I have found is Yamada Milled: this Japanese guy is like the Miura of putters....
jeffy
Banned
He tried to talk me into buying one, although he may have been kidding. It had two shallow trenches that ran across the crown from front to back, about wide enough to fit a strip of lead tape. He loaded up the trench closer to the hosel and said he loved it.
As for the Japan Gauges, at the end of the day they are just putters. I've gotten over my phase of buying exotic clubs.
mgranato
New
The last time he asked me about shafts, he was all in love with the latest Nike driver. He loves the hunt
I never really had an exotic phase, always treated clubs like tools. However, I do like "good" tools. For my money, the Japanese products are top shelf. I love my Miura irons, and have always heard great things about the Gauge putters. There's something classically understated about their top designers that's always been appealing.
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