Jim that's a great point that I never thought of but now that you mention it I have been the longest with tip stiff shafts and I've got an evo lite coming as we speak. Did you learn this on your own or is there some actual reason you can explain it with? This could be it's own post and very eye opening. BTW-Even though I build clubs as a hobby and have Loft/Lie machine and freq. analyzer, digital scale.......All that crap but I've never actually been fitted with an launch monitor and I know I need too but it just hasn't happened yet.
Here is some dialog from another website that we went through that i will post below:
Poster:
Ok so if two identical golfers, a Swinger and a Hitter, were expertly fitted to the nth, can you predict, with some accuracy, how the results will vary?
It is common to see the terms Hitter or Swinger when people are talking about shaft fitting, but in this context they seem to be referring only to the look of the golfers transition.
Jim Kobylinski Response:
Yes i can predict to about 90-95% accuracy. HOWEVER we are going to use the same tempo and the same type of relese for each as well as the same swing speed, we'll use 110. Tempo and where you release play a big part in shaft fitting as well. So as i said, we'll keep these the same to give you an idea on how to fit. We'll use a medium tempo and an normal release, no delay stuff.
Swinger
- If using a 400-460cc head around 9.0-10.0* of TRUE MEASURED LOFT
- Shaft flex will be low to mid kick with anywhere from soft tip to medium firm tip. Usually the player will pick which he "feels" more comfortable but both can be fit for proper numbers.
- Shaft weight can be anything, usually swingers can handle any weight shaft. However shaft weight should be figured out in regards to tempo and feel for each player
Hitter
- If using a 400-460cc head around 8.0-9.5* of TRUE MEASURED LOFT
- Shaft flex will be mid to high kick with anywhere from medium firm tip to very stiff tip. A soft "feel" tip will work but it needs to be a low spin shaft like an Accra.
- Usually hitters need an "in between" in regards to flex and would be well suited for Tipped S flexes (in this 110mph case) versus a straight X flex
- Shaft weight needs to be heavier, in my opinion at least 75g...anything less and you'll be inconsistent
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Here is another dialog i had where questions are inbedded in quotes with my responses after it:
Jim, my guess is that hinging is the reason for the higher lofts and low spin shafts for the Hitter.
Partially, since a swinger tends to horizontal hinge this will produce a lower launch and lower spin thus needing more loft. Also since a hitter tends to angle hinge and add spin through impact due to the layback, you need to counter act that natural high producing launch/spin with lower loft. These aren't constants because a swinger could use angle hinging and a hitter could full roll it through impact. But we aren't fitting "specific" people here. I'm just trying to show you the differences to learn. Also, swingers tend to load the shaft smoother versus a hitter (due to the pulling vs pushing) usually and thus can get away with a higher loft.
Why can't a Hitter use a light shaft?
If you were hammering a nail into the wall would you want a plastic handle? . Because a hitter is trying to "chop down that tree" with his driving and pushing hitters tend to produce better results with heavier shafts. Also, heavier shafts tend to spin less and launch lower. All to help combat the higher ball flight of a hitter who angle hinges. I'm not saying they couldn't get away with a light shaft, they could. It is just my opinion and experience that most hitters tend to hit the ball better/longer/more consistent with a heavier shaft.
In your example, the Hitter would likely be between flexes, what about the Swinger?
LOL...depends. Not all shafts play true to flex. I would say a true swinger could handle a TRUE STIFF @ 110 if they were really smooth. However, you could tip it a 1/2" or play a shaft that plays a little soft to flex and put them in an X. Some shafts that play a little soft are ProLaunch, Aldia NVS, and most "tip soft low kick" shafts. Not all, but most. A hitter @ 110 mph would probably fall into the X flex range in many shafts, but since i believe in a little higher loft on the driver head, I feel it'd be better to tip a S flex. This helps stabilize the tip more and keep the spin under control which is good for the hitter.
Why the difference in tip stiffness?
I think i kinda already answered this, but mainly its because of the way the two different swing types load the shaft. When you have layback through impact you want a pretty "stable" tip. Anything too soft and you'll inconsistant spin issues and not as much consistency from my experience. The only "tip soft" shaft that handles a hitter's stroke well from my experience and my clubmaker's is the Accra series. Excellent shafts.
I’m not sure, maybe before this goes any further we need to be more accurate. Is there any point in working through this with all other things held constant? Is that reality?
I think we're pretty good right now. As these are some generalities to help you realize the difference. However like i said above, tempo and release type/point play a HUGE part in fitting. For instance the swinger i talk about who can get away with soft tip shafts, maybe if they have a very delayed release and a nick price like tempo couldn't. They'd probably need some tipping as well to help stabilize impact. I'd saying fitting from what i've dealt with is more of an art than it is a science. This is why i don't like going to clubmakers/fitters who may have the latest fitting technology but don't really know enough how to utilize it in regards to my swing, ball type, etc. You can't just get a launch monitor and expect to fit people perfect. You need to more about shaft profiling and the swing imo.
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Please ask any other questions. My knowledge comes from a good friend who has his own shop, clubfitting business and his own line of shafts. This also comes from my knowledge of TGM and how i had to fit myself due to my pattern changes.
