club path vs. horiz. swing plane

[18in2hours]

What is the primary difference between these 2 Trackman readings? My understanding is that club path is the "at impact" reading, but I'm a little fuzzier on the HSP. I have some Trackman printouts from my own swing and on some of them the HSP and CP are very close to one another and on other swings there is much more variance, why would this be? If I had a better understanding of the HSP, I could probably figure it out on my own, but I don't, which is why I ask.

 

[Kevin Shields]

The HSP doesnt take into account the resultant path after angle of attack is factored in. HSP is the direction your swing is pointed (or the baseline direction of your plane). The CP is the true path vector at the point of contact.

 

[savydan]

Step by Step........

1. HSP is the direction at low point.

2. Club Path is the direction at impact.

3. Before low point: CP is to the right of HSP.

4. After low point: CP is the the left of HSP.

5. How much right or left in #3 and #4 above are influence by AoA and VSP. Large AoA and low VSP combinations move the CP away from the HSP the most.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Great information guys, thanks for the answers. The horizontal swing plane is now the "Direction of the swing" for Trackman now correct?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[savydan]

Yep. It's in the latest newsletter (Oct '10).

The new definitions are in plainer English which is mostly good and a little bad, IMO.

E.g. VSP is now Swing Plane. Well "swing plane" gets thrown around so much in discussion it could be difficult to determine if someone means the general definition or really means the specific Trackman definition. Guess we should at least capitalize the first letters if we mean the specific Trackman definition.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Great information guys, thanks for the answers. The horizontal swing plane is now the "Direction of the swing" for Trackman now correct?

Thanks,

Steve

Yes, I dont get the low point thing. Its the direction you're swinging before or after low point. Its the entire lower half of the downswing.

 

[DCgolf]

Yea they announced at the users conference that VSP is now plane and HSP is now swing direction. Tuxen and Frelich said the old terms were misleading and the new ones simplify it.

 

[mjstrong]

I find it much simpler to refer to the 4 characteristics of Swing/Impact plane in vertical/horizontal terms. Vertical Plane, Horizontal Plane, Vertical Path (Angle of Attack), and Horizontal Path (Club Path, Club Strike, etc...).

 

[wulsy]

The HSP/swing direction can only be determined after you've determined low point, right?

I don't find the new terms better in any way, in fact they are not unequivocal enough for me. The old ones were pretty explicit and precise. That's what happens when you ask Danes to select terms in English I suppose.

BTW thanks savy, information nicely represented.

 

[Richie3Jack]

How does Trackman measure attack angle? The reason why I ask this is that AoA is the amount of ascending or descending blow which is something I would assume to be measured from the Face on view. But since Trackman is behind the golfer (DTL), I'm not sure how it measures AoA. Or if it just calculates AoA instead.








3JACK

 

[savydan]

My guess...and only a guess....is that Trackman somehow measures the 3D movement of the clubhead and then breaks that down into a bunch of the 2D terms we are familiar with.

 

[savydan]

The HSP/swing direction can only be determined after you've determined low point, right?

I don't find the new terms better in any way, in fact they are not unequivocal enough for me. The old ones were pretty explicit and precise. That's what happens when you ask Danes to select terms in English I suppose.

BTW thanks savy, information nicely represented.

Yep. How else could you define what direction Brian's blue plane board points down the range? The actual path is constantly changing.

 

[Kevin Shields]

But the swing "direction" isn't changing.

 

[lia41985]

But the swing "direction" isn't changing.

Yeah, I thought the zero point of horizontal swing plane/swing direction was defined by a straight line through the middle of the ball (0 degrees from a point on the middle back of the ball), impact with a zeroed out face and zeroed out (true/resultant) path, generating a shot with a zeroed out spin axis; all these zero measurements are fixed constants/built in assumptions). Does this quadruple zero parameter define the "true" low point?

Step by Step........

1. HSP is the direction at low point.

2. Club Path is the direction at impact.

3. Before low point: CP is to the right of HSP.

4. After low point: CP is the the left of HSP.

Is that description compatible/similar to your description, savydan?

 

[savydan]

How do you define exactly what someone's Swing Direction is if you are swinging on an inclined plane and the actual horizontal direction is constantly changing?

 

[savydan]

Yeah, I thought the zero point of horizontal swing plane/swing direction was defined by a straight line through the middle of the ball (0 degrees from a point on the middle back of the ball), impact with a zeroed out face and zeroed out (true/resultant) path, generating a shot with a zeroed out spin axis; all these zero measurements are fixed constants/built in assumptions). Does this quadruple zero parameter define the "true" low point?

Is that description compatible/similar to your description, savydan?

No, unless your angle of attack is zero. You don't usually "zero-out" at low point. You zero-out when the CP=0 and the Face Angle = 0.

When you're hitting down, you can only zero out when the AoA and VSP are such that the CP is shifted just enough rightward from the HSP to make the CP (the actual horizontal path) square to the target (for an instant in time).

Think of a club swinging or sliding along a roof line. The gutter line is facing due North. If you hit the ball before the clubhead reaches the gutter, the clubhead is actually moving North-East. Therefore, to get the clubhead moving due North when you are hitting down at impact, the gutter line (the HSP) has to be facing North-West.

 

[lia41985]

When you're hitting down, you can only zero out when the AoA and VSP are such that the CP is shifted just enough rightward from the HSP to make the CP (the actual horizontal path) square to the target (for an instant in time).

What if the AoA is zero (perfectly level strike) and the VSP is equal to the lie angle the club was designed to return to?

 

[savydan]

What if the AoA is zero (perfectly level strike) and the VSP is equal to the lie angle the club was designed to return to?

At lowpoint (AoA = 0) the CP is the HSP and if your face angle is 0 (should be) then you're zeroed-out.

 

[lia41985]

At lowpoint (AoA = 0) the CP is the HSP and if your face angle is 0 (should be) then you're zeroed-out.

That was what I was stumbilingly trying to say in my original post--quadruple zero being zero horizontal swing plane/swing direction with a zero angle of attack/therefore zero resultant path, zero face, launching a ball with zero spin axis and these quadruple zero parameters would "define" the low point. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[dbl]

Pardon me but what's the point of defining low point for a zero degree angle of attack shot? That's a special case and unusual for 11 out of 14 clubs, right?