Clubfitters/Equipment Gurus---I need some help with Iron Shafts??

[finncox]

Ok, so I've done a good amount of reading on various iron shafts, and I'm a little confused. Can someone give me a basic rundown of the following shafts, their launch characteristicts, spin characteristics, and comparative stiffness/feels:

Project X
Rifle
KBS Tour
KBS C Taper

Also, how much stock do the fitters out there put into the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer for matching shafts to a player's swing?

I'm looking to re-shaft a set of Wishon's that I have, and the ultimate goal would be to pick a shaft that helps me pick up distance while not lowering flight so much that it's unplayable. I've got two almost identical sets of clubs (Wishon 555c's), so I can get away with experimenting and not lose my "gamer" set.

For whatever it's worth, I recenty started gaming a Rifle 6.0 in lieu of a softer Wishon iron shaft, and immediately picked up about a club or more of distance. Of course, this is combined with feeling like I "got my swing back" a little. When I'm on, I can swing the driver 110+, and even on mediocre days it's not hard for me to stay above 100 comfortably.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Ok, so I've done a good amount of reading on various iron shafts, and I'm a little confused. Can someone give me a basic rundown of the following shafts, their launch characteristicts, spin characteristics, and comparative stiffness/feels:

Project X
Rifle
KBS Tour
KBS C Taper

Also, how much stock do the fitters out there put into the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer for matching shafts to a player's swing?

I think all of the shafts are high launch high spin except for the KBS C-Taper which is low loft and low spin. I've used the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer and I think it's excellent. I have gotten the same reports from other golfers and fitters as well.





3JACK

 

[finncox]

I think all of the shafts are high launch high spin except for the KBS C-Taper which is low loft and low spin. I've used the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer and I think it's excellent. I have gotten the same reports from other golfers and fitters as well.

3JACK

Thanks Richie. Now I'm more confused, as I was under the impression that these shafts were all supposed to give a more "penetrating" flight, and not balloon.

Maybe I just need to find a shop with the shaft optimizer and see what it recommends.

 

[blehnhard]

I beleive the KBS Tour is mid launch with low spin. I am currently playing this in "S" and freq's out at about 6.0.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Thanks Richie. Now I'm more confused, as I was under the impression that these shafts were all supposed to give a more "penetrating" flight, and not balloon.

Maybe I just need to find a shop with the shaft optimizer and see what it recommends.

I think you'll find that most shaft companies use words like 'penetrating flight' or something to make the flight they go sound better.

Personally for me, Rifle's are so-so. I don't like Project X because they balloon up for me and I like KBS Tour if I want a higher ball flight and I love their feel, but I stick to DG because the ball flight is a little lower and I can control my distances better. I'm very interested in the KBS Tour C-Taper. Heard nothing but good things.





3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

I beleive the KBS Tour is mid launch with low spin. I am currently playing this in "S" and freq's out at about 6.0.

KBS Tours may be the highest spinning shaft out on the market. I love their feel. Spin wise they don't seem to be a problem, but they do launch quite high. So I hit them long, but I tend to have distance control issues with them.








3JACK

 

[dannyc]

If I recall, I believe the shaft optimizer usually gives 3 recommendations. I would test those three and see which shaft gives the best flight and feel.

 

[Frans@France]

Impossible to say. If fitting could be done via the internet no clubfitter would have any business left.

Also why are you putting a taper shaft in a .370 head?

"Mizuno Shaft Optimizer" : LOL, I'm sure it's so good that most tour players use it and are not buying a TM

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Project X are a very firm shaft and launch the ball high but with less spin; this keeps them from ballooning and losing too much distance because again, they launch higher. I know Richie said he balloons them but then either he was fitted incorrectly or he is somehow altering his swing to hit them because he doesn't feel comfortable with them which i have seen and even myself have experience with.

KB Tour is designed by the same guy who designed the Project X and also the out of production Accra Iron shafts; Kim Braley. KBS Tour is more of an everyday hittable Project X in my opinion; still launch high with reduced spin (compared to say a DG or normal rifle) but has more feel and slightly more spin than the original Project X shafts. Personally my favorite shafts ever were the accra iron shafts but they were ridiculously expensive and i only had a set because i won them in a raffle. I'm guessing but i would bet Kim Braley took what he learned from the Project X and moreso from the accra shafts and blended them to create the KB Tour which has been my result in playing with that shaft.

Rifle also came out with a Project X flighted shaft a few years back and are much more hittable for most people because they are flighted and not the same shaft like the original Project X which kind of hurts the Project X name a bit imo.

------------------------

Generally i find MOST PEOPLE fall into 1 of 2 camps:

1) Prefer stiffer tip / softer butt shafts (most dynamic gold products)
2) Prefer softer tip / stiffer butt shafts (most rifle products)

A lot of people can hit both (me included) BUT you, the player, generally will play better with one over the other.

EITHER WAY

Find a reputable clubfitter and go through the process, it's worth every penny to "know" and not have to worry about it. Plus when you think about wanting to "Try something" and have worked with that fitter for a bit they will most likely know if that shaft will be a good fit for you from others based on your current tendencies and can help you with questions and decisions.

Hope that helps

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Impossible to say. If fitting could be done via the internet no clubfitter would have any business left.

While what Frans says is true if you already have some reliable and accurate data based on previous fittings most good online clubfitters can get you REALLLLY damn close through online alone based on their experience but it relies extremely on what data and knowledge YOU give them.

So if you have that type of knowledge/data then they can help you from afar but if you don't, in person and demoing is the only way.

 

[dannyc]

"Mizuno Shaft Optimizer" : LOL, I'm sure it's so good that most tour players use it and are not buying a TM

It's just to help you narrow the field before you get on a LM.

 

[Richie3Jack]

It's just to help you narrow the field before you get on a LM.

That and not everybody has access to a Trackman or can afford the $100-$200 extra in getting fit on a Trackman. And I know for a FACT that there are some PGA Tour players who have used it to help with their shaft fitting...because I've seen them do it in person.

The way the Optimizer works is it's basically a 6-iron club and you can hit it off of grass or on mats. It measures clubhead speed and other factors like how you 'load' and 'unload' the shaft in transition along with when you release the clubhead. The measuring took is on the clubshaft.

You hit a few shots with it and then numbers will pop up on the digital measuring device. It will read something like 5,3,3,1,5.

You plug those numbers into the Optimizer software program on the computer.

They then give you 3 most recommended shafts. However, they will also tell you what shaft you should get if they are not in the top 3. So let's say your top 3 recommended shafts are Dynamic Gold X100, Project X 6.0 and some Nippon Shaft....but, you want a KBS...you can look for what they recommend you for KBS too.

Usually the recommendations are like KBS Tour Stiff Flex (Softstepped Once).

I think if you combine that with outdoor testing and Trackman or FlightScope, you should be able to easily find the best shafts for you.





3JACK

 

[Jared Willerson]

Get on a Mizuno shaft optimizer, it will tell the truth.

 

[Frans@France]

......The way the Optimizer works is it's basically a 6-iron club and you can hit it off of grass or on mats. It measures clubhead speed and other factors like how you 'load' and 'unload' the shaft in transition along with when you release the clubhead. The measuring took is on the clubshaft.

You hit a few shots with it and then numbers will pop up on the digital measuring device. It will read something like 5,3,3,1,5. ....

I can more remarks about the other part of your posting but I decided that this one is the most interesting.

The claims about what this machine can measure from the mizuno website "Headspeed, Tempo, Toe down, Kick angle, Release factor" also on that some page can be found what that data is suppose to mean

Head Speed - rather obvious, maximum head speed value during the swing.

Tempo - This measured what kind of transition you have on a scale of 1 to 9 (one being the smoothest and nine being the quickest). Think of Ernie Els' swing vs. Nick Price. No number is better than the other, just personal tempo.

Toe Down - As it sounds, this is how much the shaft bends down towards the ground during the swing (again, on a one to nine scale). This won't have a big effect on lie angle, but possibly a slight one. This is why we recommend one you find the proper shaft, that you use the lie fit club to take a lie angle measurement WITH THAT SHAFT.

Kick Angle - The amount the shaft bends forward (towards the target). This helps us to determine the proper bending profile of the shaft for you. For example, if you need something with a stiffer mid section, etc.

Release Factor - When in the swing the shaft itself actually released the head. For a couple of extreme examples, think of Sergio Garcia and David Toms. Sergio releases VERY late, and thus needs a firmer tipped shaft. Toms releases earlier, and so he can use a softer tip to deliver more power to the ball.

So who is buying this? All this measured by a machine that sits just below the grip, that somehow can measure clubheads speed? and is capable of measuring forward shaft bend AND toe down all from the grip, and the shaft is releasing the head? Please....

Lets just assume it is possible and that somehow the strain gauges are placed correctly IN THE SHAFT at the kick point and the total weight of the optimizer is not interfering with the swing.

Who believes that swinging a club with NO relation at all to the person swinging it will show any meaningfull data? Or will the shaft changes it behaviour according to the person swinging it? Will it become heavier or lighter for those that are not flex bound but weight bound? Will it generate the correct feeling so that those that are sensible to flex/torque will not hold back?

There is only one reason for this machine and that is to have a tech gimmick that will allow to sell within the most shortest possible time frame. Most golfers using it will think "machines don't lie so it must be correct"

 

[dbl]

I can understand a dose of skepticism, but that last part is a little unfair to Richie and Jared

 

[Scott P]

I use the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer everyday in fittings, I feel as though it is very accurate. I use it as a starting point and not as the be all end all final decision. If you do a lot of fittings you know where to start a player after seeing him hit a few balls without the Optimizer. Is it right every time? No. From what I have seen it is accurate most of the time. When customers see the recommendations and then hit them while on Flightscope they are blown away.

 

[otto6457]

Not to derail the thread too far but........

I'm going to have step up and buy new irons this year since my 755's might not be legal for state stuff next year since I'm hearing that Texas is going to require conforming grooves on 2012. ( I already went to conforming wedges)

So I am looking at doing it right this time instead of the trial and error I went through with all of my other sets including my current one. I went through 4 sets of shafts before I decided to keep the Flighted Rifles I'm playing now. Not because I love them...I just sort of got used to them. The only thing that I've ever had checked on my clubs is the yearly loft and lie check.

Anyway, if I go to Cool Clubs or to Titleist or wherever, since there are no real club fitters in my area with a Trackman or anything similar, what is the process? Do you try lots of shafts or do they narrow it down pretty quickly? Do you go through all the irons, including wedges?

Plus, at a place like Cool Clubs do you hit many different brands with different head and shaft combinations? Because that looks like it could take all day if you go through a half a dozen brands. I guess what I'm asking is how involved is the process? Is it as good as it sounds?

This might be the dumbest question, do you take your current set of clubs as a reference point to see if the new equipment is actually better?

Sorry if this is complete noobery....but I've never been much of an equipment guy. I buy what looks good to my eye then make it work. Probably not the best way to do it, but it's all I've ever known. I tend to keep my clubs for many years (except wedges). I've had my 755's since 2005 so I figure I got my money's worth.

 

[Jwat]

Otto, everything you mentioned is right on how the fitting goes. Takes about 3 hours to get through iron set at cool clubs in Dallas.

 

[Frans@France]

I use the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer everyday in fittings, I feel as though it is very accurate. I use it as a starting point and not as the be all end all final decision. If you do a lot of fittings you know where to start a player after seeing him hit a few balls without the Optimizer. Is it right every time? No. From what I have seen it is accurate most of the time. When customers see the recommendations and then hit them while on Flightscope they are blown away.

If you do a lot of fittings with it then maybe you can explain how a machine connected to the shaft below to grip can measure all those values? or maybe it's just guesstimating it?

You as a fitter have no problem with the extra weight of the machine on the shaft in relation to the swing?

You have no problem using a GRAPHITE shaft for this? and then trying to fit someone in a steel shaft based on what the machine shows.

It is already a hint in itself that there are no real values presented except for head speed but only some unknown 1 till 9 figures for things like "Kick Angle, tempo"

All this reminds me of fitchip : Link to Fit Chip

 

[finncox]

If you do a lot of fittings with it then maybe you can explain how a machine connected to the shaft below to grip can measure all those values? or maybe it's just guesstimating it?

You as a fitter have no problem with the extra weight of the machine on the shaft in relation to the swing?

You have no problem using a GRAPHITE shaft for this? and then trying to fit someone in a steel shaft based on what the machine shows.

It is already a hint in itself that there are no real values presented except for head speed but only some unknown 1 till 9 figures for things like "Kick Angle, tempo"

All this reminds me of fitchip : Link to Fit Chip

Frans,

I'm obviously no expert (hence this thread), but in fairness, I did watch a video that had a little more information than the "promotional" Mizuno youtube videos. According to this video, there are various strain gauges at different points throughout the inside of the shaft. So, it's not just the gizmo under the grip that does the measuring. I think that's just where they decided to place the electronics/computer, or whatever it is.

That being said, I don't know the physics/clubfitting knowledge of whether such a system would work, but my understanding is that it's not just one point at which they are taking the measurements.