David Toms SwingVision
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
What a moron....here's the REAL SCOOP.
1) When David's swing goes bad he swings too far to the right. Essentially, David uses a variation of the "Never Hook Again" type pattern.
2) Now, with that pattern you stand MORE UPRIGHT with LESS AXIS TILT so that you don't have as much tendency to swing too far to the right.
3) With 2 in mind that means you are going to have to CREATE A LOT OF TILT in the downswing, that's why he has so much hip slide.
4) That IS NOT A POWER LEAK. It is actually how he creates HIS TRIGGER DELAY (as any good golfer does) and creates his power.
5) David Toms (like a lot of golfers on tour) are RANDOM RELEASERS. He is in the middle of how much delay he creates and when be begins to release the club. Examples of an early "sweep" type release would be Tom Watson and an exampl of a late "snap" type release would be Sergio or Hogan.
Hope that helps.
1) When David's swing goes bad he swings too far to the right. Essentially, David uses a variation of the "Never Hook Again" type pattern.
2) Now, with that pattern you stand MORE UPRIGHT with LESS AXIS TILT so that you don't have as much tendency to swing too far to the right.
3) With 2 in mind that means you are going to have to CREATE A LOT OF TILT in the downswing, that's why he has so much hip slide.
4) That IS NOT A POWER LEAK. It is actually how he creates HIS TRIGGER DELAY (as any good golfer does) and creates his power.
5) David Toms (like a lot of golfers on tour) are RANDOM RELEASERS. He is in the middle of how much delay he creates and when be begins to release the club. Examples of an early "sweep" type release would be Tom Watson and an exampl of a late "snap" type release would be Sergio or Hogan.
Hope that helps.
shortgamer
New
He implies that axis tilt is what makes him lose power. What a tool.BTW-I don't remember Tom's being a short hitter.
self-mastery
New
A perfect example of why I don't read golf mags, watch TGC, or pay any attention to golf swing theory that hasn't been filtered. Hell I dont even watch golf!
Astonishing nonsense!
There is no abnormal hip slide in David Toms swing. He only slides enough so that he can get his weight onto his left leg and he then pivots over his straightening left leg. The outer border of his left hip never goes left of the inner left foot, and that is not an abnormally large slide.
Here is a downswing sequence showing Hogan's hip slide.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/BenHogan-DownswingSeries.jpg
Jeff.
There is no abnormal hip slide in David Toms swing. He only slides enough so that he can get his weight onto his left leg and he then pivots over his straightening left leg. The outer border of his left hip never goes left of the inner left foot, and that is not an abnormally large slide.
Here is a downswing sequence showing Hogan's hip slide.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/BenHogan-DownswingSeries.jpg
Jeff.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
He's about average out there, not very long but not very short. I just did a quick average (nothing very analytical) and the average driving distance on the PGA tour is about 285 and Toms is sitting at 135th at 280.
He COULD be longer if he wanted to embrace high launch/low spin. However like a lot of guys on tour they have their "trajectory window" that they like to see the ball go through and they could care less if the numbers weren't "optimal" as long as they were comfortable with their window.
Jim,
Thank you for that. I think "optimal" is overrated and unatainable for most. This "trajectory window" has opened a door for me, sts.
Can you go deeper into the comfort of this window? For example, does it have a lot to do with the way they hinge or is it just a pychological view in the mind's eye?
Thanks.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I have heard through friends who know the tour van guys that a lot of the older players on tour dont necessarily want to optimize their launch conditions 100%. For a lot of them the ball is just launching too high and they don't like it, they feel it's too high for them to control. So they want to optimize their numbers but only within their "window" of where it goes.
However this isn't universal with all players, VJ is an older guy on Tour and he launches it as high as anyone.
golfbulldog
New
Impact alignments - completely forgotten!
The guy misses some of the most beautiful features - and the really key bit as far as the ball is concerned! - that flat left wrist and bent right wrist at impact !!! Looks textbook... Bet Brian loves that left shoulder up and away from the ball too! ( = right shoulder downplane with axis tilt ++)
Does he have alot of weight on the outside of his left foot at impact?? Too much??
Great swing!
The guy misses some of the most beautiful features - and the really key bit as far as the ball is concerned! - that flat left wrist and bent right wrist at impact !!! Looks textbook... Bet Brian loves that left shoulder up and away from the ball too! ( = right shoulder downplane with axis tilt ++)
Does he have alot of weight on the outside of his left foot at impact?? Too much??
Great swing!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Peter Kostis' Golf Swing "Analysis"...
Well....
"Power Leak"???
Listen folks, Peter is a professional TV announcer these days. He is quite good at the technical aspects of his job, even though—to be honest—I don't like almost anything he has to say about any golf swing he discribes on TV, esp. the ones on SwingVison.
He says (in his words) David loses his wrist cock early in the downswing becuase he has hip slide and axis tilt.
Wow.
David Toms has a more "random" release than—lets say—Sergio Garcia. He always has. I taught him how to "lag it" more (actually delay the release of his accumulators) in our early days together in the late 80's. He hit it worse and didn't gain any distance. So, I worked with his very destinctive release, and improved his pivot and impact alignments. His other instructor has also done a very good job over the years of getting David to keep his right wrist bent through impact and pivot dynamically.
David, basically releases his #2 accumulator (left wrist cock) a little, very early in the downswing, then sustains all the "angles" until very late in the downswing. It isn't something everyone who is 165 lbs and a fairly long hitter like David is—does, but I know it works to the tune of 27+million dollars in winnings.
Hip Slide and Axis Tilt are present in every "late releaser" in history, something you would think Peter Kostis would know.
Anyhoo, it was just one "non full time teacher's" opinion, and one I disagree with with all my heart.
As I continue to improve my TV "chops," I realize how good Peter is at what he does (not what he says). I am getting better every day on TV though, and I am down on Panama City as I write, shooting many TV spots for the Tourist Network. I wasn't bad a few years ago when I got my "start in the business," but, like anything else, I have learned a lot with experience, and, well, watch out Peter, an Itallian man is coming.
I am VERY sure if Peter would hang out on this forum, we'd smarten him up quite a bit. He is no dummy, he just has never had the opportunity to learn all the stuff I have. I do know he expressed he total disinterest in teaching a few years back. I have NEVER been more excited about my next lesson. Jack Nicklaus always said you enjoy what you are good at.
One day, if I get reach my goals, I"ll be the guy doing the analysis on TV broadcast. I sure would have done David's analysis a bit differently, and I think—and hope you agree—quite a bit better.
Well....
"Power Leak"???
Listen folks, Peter is a professional TV announcer these days. He is quite good at the technical aspects of his job, even though—to be honest—I don't like almost anything he has to say about any golf swing he discribes on TV, esp. the ones on SwingVison.
He says (in his words) David loses his wrist cock early in the downswing becuase he has hip slide and axis tilt.
Wow.
David Toms has a more "random" release than—lets say—Sergio Garcia. He always has. I taught him how to "lag it" more (actually delay the release of his accumulators) in our early days together in the late 80's. He hit it worse and didn't gain any distance. So, I worked with his very destinctive release, and improved his pivot and impact alignments. His other instructor has also done a very good job over the years of getting David to keep his right wrist bent through impact and pivot dynamically.
David, basically releases his #2 accumulator (left wrist cock) a little, very early in the downswing, then sustains all the "angles" until very late in the downswing. It isn't something everyone who is 165 lbs and a fairly long hitter like David is—does, but I know it works to the tune of 27+million dollars in winnings.
Hip Slide and Axis Tilt are present in every "late releaser" in history, something you would think Peter Kostis would know.
Anyhoo, it was just one "non full time teacher's" opinion, and one I disagree with with all my heart.
As I continue to improve my TV "chops," I realize how good Peter is at what he does (not what he says). I am getting better every day on TV though, and I am down on Panama City as I write, shooting many TV spots for the Tourist Network. I wasn't bad a few years ago when I got my "start in the business," but, like anything else, I have learned a lot with experience, and, well, watch out Peter, an Itallian man is coming.
I am VERY sure if Peter would hang out on this forum, we'd smarten him up quite a bit. He is no dummy, he just has never had the opportunity to learn all the stuff I have. I do know he expressed he total disinterest in teaching a few years back. I have NEVER been more excited about my next lesson. Jack Nicklaus always said you enjoy what you are good at.
One day, if I get reach my goals, I"ll be the guy doing the analysis on TV broadcast. I sure would have done David's analysis a bit differently, and I think—and hope you agree—quite a bit better.
tbarbertab
New
Well done Brian...
I'm no expert, but David's hip slide and rotation looks textbook to me. I only wish I could rotate my hips that well!
I'm no expert, but David's hip slide and rotation looks textbook to me. I only wish I could rotate my hips that well!
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self-mastery
New
It shows how wasteful it is to pay attention to golf commentary. A few years ago, DT was used as an example of some sort of move of the future in a golf rag (mag.) But now the same move is considered a swing fault?
Is david T's version of the 'never hook again' pattern the econony model of this pattern? I could see someone really supercharging that pattern and bombing the ball.
birdie_man
New
It's a lot like Nick-loss......
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
It's just a little more more towards the draw side of the matrix than what the video Never Hook Again is. When we teach someone NHA most of the time we don't allow them to rotate their hips much in the backswing, we get their backswings sometimes even steeper, and once in a while you'll have to give someone the head in the middle of the feet feeling to get them from coming too underplane.
As NHA pattern fixes your flaws you have to move back towards a more conventionalized pattern with a more dynamic pivot and some hip turn on the backswing which is what David does. It still has a lot of NHA similarities but there are some things a bit different.
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