Five Lessons

[DOCW3]

Five Lessons--How influential--method or science?

The First Part of the Swing:
Turning the hips too soon....destroys your chance of obtaining the power a correctly integrated swing give you.....As you begin the backswing, you must restrain your hips from moving until the turning of the shoulders starts to pull the hips around.

The Second Part of the Swing:
When the golfer is on this correct downswing plane, he has to hit from the inside out……he can get maximum strength into his swing and obtain maximum club head speed

What do the hands do? The answer is they do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips. The arms don't propel this motion themselves. They are carried down by the movement of the hips.

 

[Ringer]

Five Lessons--How influential--method or science?

The First Part of the Swing:
Turning the hips too soon....destroys your chance of obtaining the power a correctly integrated swing give you.....As you begin the backswing, you must restrain your hips from moving until the turning of the shoulders starts to pull the hips around.

Nope. In almost every swing there is an extra stretching as the lower body starts the forward swing. You don't have to "pre-stretch" in the back-swing ala X factor.

The Second Part of the Swing:
When the golfer is on this correct downswing plane, he has to hit from the inside out……he can get maximum strength into his swing and obtain maximum club head speed

If he wants to hit a hook maybe. But maximum speed... there is no evidence that I have seen.

What do the hands do? The answer is they do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips. The arms don't propel this motion themselves. They are carried down by the movement of the hips.

Different for everyone but in general right about the time the butt end of the club is perpendicular to the ground face on is the right time to add torque to the club. Some people do it sooner, some later. There is no clear benefit to doing it either way, instead it is up to the individual and how fast they can apply that torque with the strength in their arms.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Ben Hogan's knowledge in the field of human anatomy (and probably physics) was certainly above average these days, that is sort of documented - his IIWW carer as military fitness instructor or his biophysical concepts described in layman terms in his books/articles confirm it well.
His '5 Lessons' is a great attempt to depict the optimal biomechanical model of the golf swing motion. He never was that naive to think that there are million equally good ways to swing a club LOL. He presented his version of the best components - best grip type, best stance, best backswing and downswing action models. He never wanted to distinguish silly notions as e.g. siwnging/hitting. He was ahead of his time a lot and those who say that his book produced only a bunch of slicers or misinterpreted this great book or simply do not know much about biokinetics.

I'd certainly prefer to discuss mistakes in this book (yes, I think even him was not right always) than to literally PUKE with these endless and useless debates about TGM.

Cheers

P.S. TrackMan lovers should have balls and admit that his stance concepts are valid for D-plane and new ball flight laws. And his book was written in the 50-ies !!!

 

[birdie_man]

I'd certainly prefer to discuss mistakes in this book (yes, I think even him was not right always) than to literally PUKE with these endless and useless debates about TGM.

Cheers

Not useless at all you may have to swallow er down, D.

I ain't the "Mod" but...

P.S. TrackMan lovers should have balls and admit that his stance concepts are valid for D-plane and new ball flight laws. And his book was written in the 50-ies !

I believe Brian posted the picture in question, relating to Trackman, BTW...

If memory serves me correct.

Have you ever had someone deny the relation to you?

What's with the hardon over Hogan anyway?

I appreciate him too...

 

[Dariusz J.]

Not useless at all you may have to swallow er down, D.

I ain't the "Mod" but...



I believe Brian posted the picture in question, relating to Trackman, BTW...

If memory serves me correct.

Have you ever had someone deny the relation to you?

What's with the hardon over Hogan anyway?

I appreciate him too...

Pardon me, mate, I am entitled to express my subjective opinions, and one of these is that I do not think that sacrificing so much time and efforts to discuss nuances of Kelley's archaic work ad nauseum while we are being told to have real science in front of us is useless and is a waste of time.
If Hogan's concepts, as e.g. his diagonal stance, were throughfully debated here on Brian's site - I apologize. I simply do not remember such a casus. I remember a few discussions about Hogan's swing motion, but not about his concepts in the biomechanical sense.

Cheers

 

[birdie_man]

Oh you're free!!

So am I, I think.

No worries on any of the material.

Just thought you came on a little strong, Dariusz.

Then again you could be talking about some other Trackman lovers, from another site, or whatever...

 

[HowardK]

birdie man

Oh you're free!!

So am I, I think.

No worries on any of the material.

Just thought you came on a little strong, Dariusz.

Then again you could be talking about some other Trackman lovers, from another site, or whatever...

there u go again creating trouble.....

and who else comes on STRONG....answer the question as asked....thunder bay person

hi to michelle

 

[Brian Manzella]

THE VERY FIRST THING I SAID....

The day I figured out how to ADJUST the plane line/HSP so that the RESULTANT PATH would be "on line," I told 100 people....

"I guess Ben Hogan knew some stuff, eh."

You think I'm that goofy not to notice that right away?

As far as all the TGM crud, it is a necessary thing as move away from it.

 

[birdie_man]

answer the question as asked....

hi to michelle

I answer nothing, H!!

You should just come out and say it, again...!

Michelle does not want to talk!!

(see you later)

 

[Ringer]

The day I figured out how to ADJUST the plane line/HSP so that the RESULTANT PATH would be "on line," I told 100 people....

"I guess Ben Hogan knew some stuff, eh."

You think I'm that goofy not to notice that right away?

As far as all the TGM crud, it is a necessary thing as move away from it.

Funny, Hogan said he adjusted his stance to help with his hip turn. Was he lying in the book or just didn't understand really why it worked?

 

[natep]

I've never understood that explanation by Hogan about the diagonal stance. IIRC he says he opens his stance with the short clubs because the shorter length of the clubs speeds up his swing and he doesnt have time to clear his hips. He doesnt mention any reason for closing his stance though. By his line of reasoning it would seem that he pulled his right foot back from the line to delay his hip turn to the left.

 

[dbl]

Maybe the D-Plane was his secret and he wasn't quite ready to explain it/give it away....

 

[natep]

But he did give it away. I think he probably just knew that it worked and gave him the ball flight he wanted but didnt really know why.

 

[SteveT]

Yes ... Hogan differentiated between the backswing and downswing 'planes' .. an amazing observation since it was essentially based on 'feel'. However, his skewed to the right downswing plane did not take into account the clubface "normal" direction, only the path of the clubhead.

Had Hogan tried to analyze the clubhead path and the clubface normal direction, he would have been overwhelmed by the variables. Also let's remember that much of 5 Lessons was influenced by Warren Wind who was the actual writer of the book.

Jorgensen in his 'Physics for Golf" properly defined the D-plane ... read it for fun.

 

[birdie_man]

Was it fun Steve???

 

[Dariusz J.]

I've never understood that explanation by Hogan about the diagonal stance. IIRC he says he opens his stance with the short clubs because the shorter length of the clubs speeds up his swing and he doesnt have time to clear his hips. He doesnt mention any reason for closing his stance though. By his line of reasoning it would seem that he pulled his right foot back from the line to delay his hip turn to the left.

The main reason is a balanced restriction of the swing arc length aimed at accuracy. He never used feet for aiming but for creating a solid base for his motion being build sequentially from the ground up; it was like his feet line covered path while his shoulders aimed at the target. Beautiful and logical concept opposite to not very wise idea of having feet parallel to the target line and aiming by them. Not conicidentally also, his stance is still a model for an average hacker who won't ever care to understand nuances of the D-Plane.

Cheers

P.S. If you want to know more about the diagonal stance, PM me.

 

[SteveT]

I've never understood that explanation by Hogan about the diagonal stance. IIRC he says he opens his stance with the short clubs because the shorter length of the clubs speeds up his swing and he doesnt have time to clear his hips. He doesnt mention any reason for closing his stance though. By his line of reasoning it would seem that he pulled his right foot back from the line to delay his hip turn to the left.

I interpreted the closed stance for the driver as necessary not to delay the hip turn, but to delay shoulder rotation to allow the driver to drop into the slot before his right elbow started extending.

I faintly recall Nicklaus also doing the same thing to "keep his back aiming towards the target" for a slightly extended time so he could manipulate his arms properly.

Such a delayed shoulder turn will slightly unload and then reload the shaft going to impact. It's a common downswing shaft loading profile .. and it's called the "double peak" loading according to TT on their ShaftLab data.

(BTW ... does anybody still remember the True Temper ShaftLab equipment .. it was great?!!)

 

[DOCW3]

Missing Piece

Considering VJ's missing piece or does it matter?

I interpreted the closed stance for the driver as necessary not to delay the hip turn, but to delay shoulder rotation to allow the driver to drop into the slot before his right elbow started extending.

I faintly recall Nicklaus also doing the same thing to "keep his back aiming towards the target" for a slightly extended time so he could manipulate his arms properly.

Such a delayed shoulder turn will slightly unload and then reload the shaft going to impact. It's a common downswing shaft loading profile .. and it's called the "double peak" loading according to TT on their ShaftLab data.

(BTW ... does anybody still remember the True Temper ShaftLab equipment .. it was great?!!)

 

[birdie_man]

He never used feet for aiming but for creating a solid base for his motion being build sequentially from the ground up; it was like his feet line covered path while his shoulders aimed at the target. Beautiful and logical concept opposite to not very wise idea of having feet parallel to the target line and aiming by them. Not conicidentally also, his stance is still a model for an average hacker who won't ever care to understand nuances of the D-Plane.

Cheers

P.S. If you want to know more about the diagonal stance, PM me.

I really like this part. (honest) Unsure of the first part (omitted) but that's all it is, uncertainty.

I roughly do the same thing...some amount open when I want to be open...some amount closed when I want to be closed.

(for path reasons, shot shape, or whatever)

Never could be bothered to make sure my feet were exactly parallel.

 

[birdie_man]

Five Lessons--How influential--method or science?

The First Part of the Swing:
Turning the hips too soon....destroys your chance of obtaining the power a correctly integrated swing give you.....As you begin the backswing, you must restrain your hips from moving until the turning of the shoulders starts to pull the hips around.

Whenever I try to turn my hips open in the downswing...disasterous results have been sure to follow. In the past anyhow. Shannnnnnk...!

I have not had success with restraining either (for now I just generally try to feel loose) but I have wanted to revisit it.

"When Ben Hogan 'talks' I listen." (is my general thought)

The Second Part of the Swing:
When the golfer is on this correct downswing plane, he has to hit from the inside out……he can get maximum strength into his swing and obtain maximum club head speed

Like it. In relation to the body anyway. The r shoulder has to go downplane (down and out [at the ball] that is) from it's top position. (to be effective) Unless you are doing something a little crazy I think.

If you want to hit a fade (for example of perhaps moreSO out to in shot) you may setup more open...maybe swing moreSO out to in. (backswing and/or downswing) Or maybe it's better to say less in to out? Dunno.

What do the hands do? The answer is they do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips. The arms don't propel this motion themselves. They are carried down by the movement of the hips.

Myself I have no idea. No access to the tech or any done research, as a Random Internet Guy.

Mike Finney and B Doyle and Brian have said the hands just hold on. For me in my game that pretty much is my intention too, for what it's worth. I wouldn't be surprised if the wrists "add" (via active, but perhaps automatic, muscle force) as well around the bottom of the swing, just like about everything. (I presume)

("adding" to the whole, that is)