Todd Dugan
New
A question(s) for Brian, please...............What are your current thoughts on "flipping"? What is it? Is it bad? Why? And what are your "go to" teaching techniques to "fix" it? (I have seen the "Flipper" video).
Flipping: Where do we stand?
- Thread starter Todd Dugan
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Flipping - The UNINTENTIONAL delivery of the club with the bottom of the grip end of the club leading the top.
You really don't want to do it.
Causes include: the CLUBFACE being too open pre release phase of the swing, trying to add loft, trying to scoop the ball in the air, swinging too far to the right and having to shove the clubhead forward to make contact, trying to shallow out a desperately steep downswing—often also too far left.
Fixes include: path, clubface, angle of attack, correct hand path/torques on the club.
You really don't want to do it.
Causes include: the CLUBFACE being too open pre release phase of the swing, trying to add loft, trying to scoop the ball in the air, swinging too far to the right and having to shove the clubhead forward to make contact, trying to shallow out a desperately steep downswing—often also too far left.
Fixes include: path, clubface, angle of attack, correct hand path/torques on the club.
GeoffDickson
New
As a flipper, I looked at the ENSO-handle rotation video and thought 'How do i do increase the speed of the bottom of grip past the top of grip, without increasing my flip..I know Brian is not encouraging the flip but I can see how a golfer's search for increased handle rotation speed could create a flip if 'misimplemented'.
I would offer a sightly revised definition the flip: UNINTENTIONAL impact position of the club characterized by the bottom of the grip end of the club leading the top.
In also like the use of the term unintentional...had to hit a VERY high lob shot over tree on the weekend...figured out the only way to get the necessary height was to flip it big time...worked a treat and did not feel a bit guilty about flipping it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Going to use your version Geoff!!
Great job.
Great job.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Nobody likes to find out they were wrong.
If you handle-drag, you WILL LOSE SPEED. Period.
Next.
Remember, ENSO showed that hand speed peaks really early....
That makes some more people wrong.
There is more coming too...
What to do with hacker/flippers....
@Todd Dugan,
Close to my home lives a group of folks who still believe the earth is flat and has four corners, They picked it up and were never taught or understood what figures of speech are and how they can be used. Here is one of them for you consider. Try as hard as you can from the top to throw the club-head outwards. Believe it or not the answer is in the ENSO thread, please reconsider taking a look. Got to go, the sun is about to orbit the window.
@Todd Dugan,
Close to my home lives a group of folks who still believe the earth is flat and has four corners, They picked it up and were never taught or understood what figures of speech are and how they can be used. Here is one of them for you consider. Try as hard as you can from the top to throw the club-head outwards. Believe it or not the answer is in the ENSO thread, please reconsider taking a look. Got to go, the sun is about to orbit the window.
Todd Dugan
New
"Throw the clubhead outwards"...........Good advice for the "over-lagger", of which I myself tend to be. But tell that to the average flipper, of which the majority of golfers are, and it won't help them one bit. See, I teach every day for a living. If you think that advice will help a flipper, then go out there and start teaching. See how you do. Just plan on a short career.
Todd Dugan
New
Timing the release
I often explain the swing and its release using the classic double pendulum model.
The upper pendulum is the left arm. Its travel is aided by the body pivot motion and right arm straightening.
Call it what you want, "handle-dragging", "pulling", "tolling the bell", but this torqueing of the upper pendulum around the body happens in EVERY golf swing.
Then there is the torqueing of the lower pendulum, the club, around the hands, the "release", uncocking the wrists. TORQUE EACH ONE AS POWERFULLY AND AS FAST AS YOU CAN.
Nobody's stopping you.
But, the angle of the upper to the lower at impact, resulting from the TIMING of the release, has strong bearing on the direction that the clubhead is traveling and the direction that the clubface is pointing at impact.....you know...........the.....ah........D Plane.
SO, some people need to put more torque on the upper, while others need to torque the lower more, to acheive a better release timing, and thus, more optimal D Plane. Different medicine for different ailments.
I've got my stuff for the "over-lagger" and I've got my stuff for the "flipper", and they AIN'T the same.
You wouldn't teach an anti-hook pattern to a slicer, would you? So then why is it that so many suddenly think that everybody should be thinking of releasing the club exactly the same way? And what happened to the love for torqueing the UPPER pendulum?
I often explain the swing and its release using the classic double pendulum model.
The upper pendulum is the left arm. Its travel is aided by the body pivot motion and right arm straightening.
Call it what you want, "handle-dragging", "pulling", "tolling the bell", but this torqueing of the upper pendulum around the body happens in EVERY golf swing.
Then there is the torqueing of the lower pendulum, the club, around the hands, the "release", uncocking the wrists. TORQUE EACH ONE AS POWERFULLY AND AS FAST AS YOU CAN.
Nobody's stopping you.
But, the angle of the upper to the lower at impact, resulting from the TIMING of the release, has strong bearing on the direction that the clubhead is traveling and the direction that the clubface is pointing at impact.....you know...........the.....ah........D Plane.
SO, some people need to put more torque on the upper, while others need to torque the lower more, to acheive a better release timing, and thus, more optimal D Plane. Different medicine for different ailments.
I've got my stuff for the "over-lagger" and I've got my stuff for the "flipper", and they AIN'T the same.
You wouldn't teach an anti-hook pattern to a slicer, would you? So then why is it that so many suddenly think that everybody should be thinking of releasing the club exactly the same way? And what happened to the love for torqueing the UPPER pendulum?
Not that you're saying this - but when you say pull the upper lever (left-arm) I think of the alpha torque. And the lower lever/hands I think of in terms of applying beta torque.
For most of my golfing career I have had massive alpha torque, pulling on the left arm, and little to no beta torque; and I think that contributed to my having to flip the club. No flip = shank. I've known FOREVER that I wanted shaft lean and my hands ahead at impact. And I've pulled HARD on that grip trying to get the hands in front, and I never could!! And I ain't no weakling.
So, for anyone but a complete hacker with no conception of what the club is supposed to do, I think it is fair to spend some time thinking about using both forces. If people need more alpha fine. If they need more beta fine. It's not as simple as saying if you flip - pull more on the upper lever and if you over-lag, use more lower lever (or alpha vs. beta). If it was that easy, there would be no flippers.
For most of my golfing career I have had massive alpha torque, pulling on the left arm, and little to no beta torque; and I think that contributed to my having to flip the club. No flip = shank. I've known FOREVER that I wanted shaft lean and my hands ahead at impact. And I've pulled HARD on that grip trying to get the hands in front, and I never could!! And I ain't no weakling.
So, for anyone but a complete hacker with no conception of what the club is supposed to do, I think it is fair to spend some time thinking about using both forces. If people need more alpha fine. If they need more beta fine. It's not as simple as saying if you flip - pull more on the upper lever and if you over-lag, use more lower lever (or alpha vs. beta). If it was that easy, there would be no flippers.
Could be that the success so many people are having torquing the lower lever is due to fact that the previous (and continuing?) emphasis on torquing the upper lever in golf instruction has led to a lot of golfers overdoing it. The focus on torquing the lower lever is likely helping to offset that in those cases. How many players have learned or been instructed to drag the club down from the top, and to avoid casting at any cost in order to achieve or maintain lag?
The reason it seems as if it works for so many is because so many have been exposed to the same type of previous instruction, and for so long.
The reason it seems as if it works for so many is because so many have been exposed to the same type of previous instruction, and for so long.
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I was going to write this in Todd's other thread. 95% of Brian's online audience (golf forum enthusiasts) know how to pivot. It's been beaten into our brains for years and we over-do (more accurately, mis-apply it) it to our detriment.
Todd Dugan
New
Fixing a flip is anything but easy. And ANY concsious procedure which does so is, by definition, "effective". But if and when it happens, there will be a measurable increase to the torque of the upper pendulum, relative to the torque on the lower pendulum..............regardless of what it "feels" like.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
There is a lot of simplicity for simplicity sake in the double-p model.
But, there are a couple of things that the DP model has confirmed along with 3D models and all the measurement devices and math is this:
You can over-accelarate from the top.
You HAVE only a relatively brief period of time to add force to the lower lever.
So, to me, saying just apply force hard isn't really the answer.
But, there are a couple of things that the DP model has confirmed along with 3D models and all the measurement devices and math is this:
You can over-accelarate from the top.
You HAVE only a relatively brief period of time to add force to the lower lever.
So, to me, saying just apply force hard isn't really the answer.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The idea of an "out-toss" is simply a feel to work against an INCORRECT application of force.
Just look at the Where's the Torque thread.....ALL THE ANSWERS ARE THERE.
Just look at the Where's the Torque thread.....ALL THE ANSWERS ARE THERE.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Reminds me of Hannibal Lecter "Have you read the case files? Everything you need to catch Buffalo Bill is right there in those pages."
S
SteveT
Guest
Sooooo... is "flipping" just a premature gamma torque..
Todd Dugan
New
That's the beauty of the double P model. It allows good conceptualization for the layman. But we shouldn't confuse "simplicity" with "innacuracy". Because as many scientists have noted, including Zick, it is remarkable how closely a good golf swing comes to exactly reproducing the double P.
You're not "over-accelerating" from the top IF you can accelerate the club around the hands quickly enough for good release timing.
I think that the way the scientists explain it is that YOU ONLY HAVE A BRIEF PEROID OF TIME TO ADD FORCE TO THE LOWER LEVER WHICH WOULD INCREASE CLUBHEAD SPEED. You can add lots of force to the lower lever much sooner in the downswing, but it would not add clubhead velocity at impact.
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