For Manzella Academy Only: Swinging Under the Stick

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Gentlemen, I can use some help with this. I know that I have to swing "under the stick" on the downswing in order to eliminate the over-the-top move. As Brian and Mike know, I've been working on this for 2 years. My question is which method would be best and worst to accomplish this?

1. Re-planting my left heel, doing nothing in particular with the hands, and relying on this hip movement to lower my right shoulder and flatten the shaft. This would actually be my preferred method, but I simply have not been successful with this on the course. In my back yard, using the Plane stick, Inside Approach, Path Pro, etc. I'm fine when I'm just swinging at the grass. I never hit the obstacle. I've also placed a club box just outside the ball and never hit the box in my backyard. However, when I look at video of me actually hitting a ball without any of these aids present, my downswing is so over the top that it would frighten small children. I'm now officially frustrated, and am considering other ways to get under the stick.

2. Simply dropping the hands straight down to start the downswing. Truthfully, this option doesn't appeal to me that much because it's not how I throw a ball, hit a tennis ball, etc. I do know that many instructors advocate simply doing this. However,my concern is that when I try this, it feels as if I am making two different moves that look like a backwards "L" or using the two sides of a right triangle, when using the hypotenuse makes more sense to me. On the other hand, choice 1 hasn't worked for me.

3. Using Harvey Penick's "magic move" of re-planting the left heel and simultaneously bringing the right elbow into the right hip. Again, this makes my downswing feel like two separate moves, as in choice 2.

4. At the top, simply flattening the shaft by manipulating my hands to do so. If I push down on the shaft with my left hands, the shaft flattens considerably.

5. Simply going to the top of my backswing with a flattened shaft to begin with.

6. Any other option I haven't listed.

Sorry for the length of my post. Please weigh in on the best option and tell me if any of the choices would be a long-range disaster. Winter is here and I'd like to settle on one move and work on it indoors for two months. Thank you very much.

gumper
 
gumper, I like your post, it sounds like the average joe that golfs and all have the same problem. This is what seperates the good golfers from guys like you and me who cant get the swing right and make the same mistakes over and over and try different things and still cant get it. Your right, using props and gimmicks swinging under and being with a teacher we can swing not comming over the top and hitting the ball good. take away teacher and gimmicks we are back to square one, over the top. I`m with you gump...HELP
 
Gumper...

...How would you rate your flexibility? On a scale of 1 to 10 ( 1 being a statue and 10 being Gumby )
 
211pro,

I'm 60 years old and would rate my flexibility at about 4. I have torn cartilage in both knees and am very susceptible to hamstring and calf muscle pulls. gumper
 
This may not add anything to the conversation, but I found that having the right shoulder go under the left, not around helps a lot in reducing the OTT. Another way is to think that the shoulders rotate around the spine angle and not parallel to the ground. Not sure that is what you are experiencing.

Similar age as you, for me it is making the pivot correctly.
 

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Gumper - on backswing - Add in more of a pronounced twist away - bending the line left (classic OTT) is more often than not used to accommodate an open club face and results in poor plots along the D plane
 
Martee,

Thanks for your reply. I know that I have to do what you describe, and I will try your swing thoughts. My problem is that I experience "downstroke blackout" when I swing at the ball.

Without a ball I'm just fine. I actually have two pages listing OTT-cure swing thoughts. My latest two are "Keep your hands along the side seam of your shirt," and "Imagine that there is a concrete wall just outside your hands." Ouch! "Swing under the stick" is probably my favorite such thought.

What I really need to find out is this: What must I do DIFFERENTLY with my hands, arms, shoulder, elbow, etc. in order to get my right shoulder downplane than I do when I come over the top?

Brian has held a stick behind me while I swing. When he does that, I almost never hit the stick. However, I can't take Brian with me every time I practice or play. Therefore, for me at least, I need to understand what *exactly* I *did* to swing under the stick. What body part(s) did I move differently to achieve the desired result? Then I have to be able to apply this knowledge when I'm hitting the ball.

I'd like to have a side-by-side video of me with my OTT swing on the left and a good swing of mine on the right. Then I'd like to click frame-by-frame to isolate where I go wrong when I swing OTT. I'm sure that Brian can already tell me, but the problem is that I can't *feel* it when it starts to go wrong. Maybe I need an electric shock device instead.

The more I think about this, the less I believe in muscle memory. I really am beginning to think that for many people, this is an issue of the brain and perception, and not robotically repeating certain movements.

gumper
 
Hi Mike. Although the face issue might have been the original cause, I don't think that it is the problem now. I'm hitting more pulls than I slices now. In my particular case, I blame my baseball and tennis background. In baseball, I was a pronounced pull hitter, so my natural swing involved opening up my hips very rapidly. Doing this move in golf = OTT.

gumper

P.S.- Are you open on warm days during the winter? I get a week off in late February.
 

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Hi Mike. Although the face issue might have been the original cause, I don't think that it is the problem now. I'm hitting more pulls than I slices now. In my particular case, I blame my baseball and tennis background. In baseball, I was a pronounced pull hitter, so my natural swing involved opening up my hips very rapidly. Doing this move in golf = OTT.

gumper

P.S.- Are you open on warm days during the winter? I get a week off in late February.
Gump,

School year is going fast isn't it? Will be in Myrtle Beach that week --- As you open those hips Work that right shoulder towards the ball
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Chronic.

If you just CAN'T do it (not come over the top)...here are a few "somethings" to try:

• Learn to hit PUSH-CUTS. Aiming WAY left, try to start it way right of your body and cut it even further right.

• Practice hitting 7-irons off of a large rubber driving range mat tee—as high as you can. How? By hitting the ball FLUSH on the way up.

• Using that same driving range tee, swing the club back and forth, hitting the tee over in over in BOTH directions. Symmetrical.

• Make sure when you finish, your right shoulder is lower than your left and your right EAR is lower than your left.
 
Do I understand correctly?

Brian,

Thanks for your suggestions. Am I correct that your first suggestion would involve using my OTT move rather than fighting it, while the last three suggestions would be drills to try to correct the OTT move? Thanks.

gumper

P.S.- I played 9 holes this morning. My first 3 drives were line drive doubles down the left field line. My next 3 were mild slices. My last 3 were right down the middle. My only thoughts on the last 3 were to swing from the inside and not to allow my hips to spin out prematurely. I think that one of my problems is that when I try to kill the ball, I suddenly speed up my hip rotation, which throws my club outside the plane. Does this make sense?
 
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