Geometric Reasons for Manzella Neutral Grip
- Thread starter Wolfman
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I think Brians grip is good for what he teaches. I think Homers has more advantages if you can do it....
Homer Kelley advocated a grip where the thumb and pp3 is aft facing down the angle of approach and a true vertical condition of the wrist whilst having the hand under the heel pad - this requires a gap between the thumb. I can do this grip but have no idea if others find it difficult.
The advantages of a true vertical and flat condition is it allows a great visual guide for maintaining the flat left wrist. The more you have it turned then the more your no.2 accumulator motion becomes a bending motion rather than a true cocking motion....
If you are unable to do this grip then its a matter of - do you want the thumb more on top to make it easier to have a truely vertical left wrist? or do you want to turn the left hand to make it easier to have the thumb aft for impact support?
Homer Kelley advocated a grip where the thumb and pp3 is aft facing down the angle of approach and a true vertical condition of the wrist whilst having the hand under the heel pad - this requires a gap between the thumb. I can do this grip but have no idea if others find it difficult.
The advantages of a true vertical and flat condition is it allows a great visual guide for maintaining the flat left wrist. The more you have it turned then the more your no.2 accumulator motion becomes a bending motion rather than a true cocking motion....
If you are unable to do this grip then its a matter of - do you want the thumb more on top to make it easier to have a truely vertical left wrist? or do you want to turn the left hand to make it easier to have the thumb aft for impact support?
tongzilla
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Thanks for reminding me Wolfman! I have just given a response regarding that thread (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2507).
tongzilla
New
Before this discussion commences, I'd just like to say a few things:
1) Location of your Left Thumb has nothing to do with location of your Left Wrist Condition and Clubface Alignment.
2) Your Left Wrist should be Vertical at Impact. Now what does Vertical mean? For those who are relatively new to TGM -- Vertical means Vertical (perpendicular) to the Basic Plane of Motion (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical) you're using, which depends on your selected Hinge Action.
3) Clubface position at Impact can be Square, Opened or Close depending on Hinge Action, but has nothing to do with your Thumb Location.
4) I am repeating myself here: if you want maximum On Plane support through Impact you must have an Aft Left Thumb location. Per 1-L-10/11, 'The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force' and 'Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (Sweetspot)'.
5) If you want a Vertical Left Wrist and an Aft Thumb location, there will inevitably be a gap between your Thumb and Forefinger.
Brian can label this "gaposis", but given the above, do you still think it's just plain wrong?
1) Location of your Left Thumb has nothing to do with location of your Left Wrist Condition and Clubface Alignment.
2) Your Left Wrist should be Vertical at Impact. Now what does Vertical mean? For those who are relatively new to TGM -- Vertical means Vertical (perpendicular) to the Basic Plane of Motion (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical) you're using, which depends on your selected Hinge Action.
3) Clubface position at Impact can be Square, Opened or Close depending on Hinge Action, but has nothing to do with your Thumb Location.
4) I am repeating myself here: if you want maximum On Plane support through Impact you must have an Aft Left Thumb location. Per 1-L-10/11, 'The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force' and 'Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (Sweetspot)'.
5) If you want a Vertical Left Wrist and an Aft Thumb location, there will inevitably be a gap between your Thumb and Forefinger.
Brian can label this "gaposis", but given the above, do you still think it's just plain wrong?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
This is a great thread and I will comment tonight (just got back to Louisville).
tongzilla
New
What does a "truly Vertical Left Wrist" actually mean?
Per my previous post, Left Wrist condition is independent of Thumb location. Therefore it is very possible to have a Vertical Left Wrist with an Aft Thumb location (which inevitably results in a slight gap between Forefinger and Thumb). They are not mutually exclusive. Remember the thumb is not literally at the '3 o'clock' position. You are trying to place in such a way so that it supports the On Plane Thrust.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I cannot have a grip that places the #3pp on the correct "aft side" of the grip and achieve a PERFECTLY FLAT left wrist at the top of the swing, there has to be a small "cup" which produces a geometrically flat left wrist.
I prefer the "perfectly flat" versus "geometrically or anatomically" flat left wrist, it keeps the left side of the course out of play.
I prefer the "perfectly flat" versus "geometrically or anatomically" flat left wrist, it keeps the left side of the course out of play.
What I mean't is the left wrist is truely flat against its vertical associated plane of motion. If you ever manage to find the time to get around to reading the book, Homer Kelley in 4-D-1 says that the flat left wrist is a dependable visual check in accordance to the law of the flail 2-K which was mean't in relation to the no.2 power accumulator.
I couldn't let you get away with this one because you are so far off here and very misleading to those which wish to study TGM.
Hinge Action produces a clubface motion</u>. However my TGM rookie, Clubface Position</u> is dependant on its predetermined position at impact fix, the hinge motion is nothing but a means of reproducing this alignment in motion and does not by any stretch of the imagination control the clubface position at Impact, just the motion you must comply with.
The clubface also should be open at impact point but get squarer and squarer the more the hinge action leans towards vertical and also the longer the compression extends the impact interval. It should never be "closed" for a straightaway ball flight.
quoteer my previous post, Left Wrist condition is independent of Thumb location.
Can the thumb be on the moon, still on your hand and the left wrist still vertical? Its joined and whilst I can do a 10-2-B grip with the left wrist flat level vertical and the thumb aft directly behind the angle of approach providing onplane support at fix, I have to give some consideration that some may not...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
OK...
Here it is:
I gave about 10,000 lessons teaching EVERYONE a strong single action left hand.
I let some people 'go' stronger, but NO ONE go weaker.
I tried to get most 'visually flat,' like most of the great players, but allowed some to get "Lynn Blake flat."
I found out that SOME GOLFERS learned NOT TO SLICE or SHANK or HACK Faster with the "Manzella-Ben Hogan style" left hand grip.
15,000 lessons later, I found out I am very right.
The REASONs are many, but the best one is that you HAVE TO LEARN to rotate the arm without bending the wrist to hit it straight—and because you have to—you do!
Here it is:
I gave about 10,000 lessons teaching EVERYONE a strong single action left hand.
I let some people 'go' stronger, but NO ONE go weaker.
I tried to get most 'visually flat,' like most of the great players, but allowed some to get "Lynn Blake flat."
I found out that SOME GOLFERS learned NOT TO SLICE or SHANK or HACK Faster with the "Manzella-Ben Hogan style" left hand grip.
15,000 lessons later, I found out I am very right.
The REASONs are many, but the best one is that you HAVE TO LEARN to rotate the arm without bending the wrist to hit it straight—and because you have to—you do!
swingeasttowest
New
Fix the clubface first, right Brian...........
tongzilla
New
Thanks Brian for sharing your wealth of real-world teaching experience. We must bare in mind that a lot of students these days are looking for instant results. So whatever he can do in 45 minutes to get them hitting straighter, longer shots, he will do it!
Like Homer said, you must allow for psychological needs and preferences!
Like Homer said, you must allow for psychological needs and preferences!
tongzilla
New
After my previous post and Brian's comments, I don't have anything else to add to this thread. However, Matthew evidently isn't satisfied with what I've written! Tongzilla will do his best to explain. Bare in mind that this discussion may drift slightly off topic.
Ouch, my thumb on the moon? LOL! I repeat myself: "Remember the thumb is not literally at the '3 o'clock' position. You are trying to place in such a way so that it supports the On Plane Thrust (per 1-L-10/11)."
Agreed. But since when did I mention the words "Accumulator #2"? This should be left out of the discussion.
Am I really so far off? Being correct may sometimes seem misleading. There were times when I though Homer got it wrong during my study of TGM. But eventually, I saw the light. Please read on.
Agreed: Hinge Action is executes a Clubface Motion during Impact Interval.
Slight disagreement/confusion: Where your Clubface is at Impact depends on your Hinge Action for a straightaway flight. So Hinge Action does control clubface alignment at Impact, whether you look at it as a motion or taking a snap shot during the motion.
Now we're getting to the core! Please take time to understand the following before attacking the messenger.
For Angled Hinging the Clubface is aligned at Impact Fix Closed to the Target Line per 2-J-1 -- and the longer the Shot the more Closed the Clubface. The further back the Ball is located toward the Right Foot, the more Closed the Clubface becomes to the Delivery Line and the Lag Pressure Point (7-11).
Homer taught a Square alignment in the earlier editions of TGM -- as opposed to Horizontal Hinging's Open alignment -- thinking that would be sufficient of offset the Slicing tendency. But he came to believe otherwise -- "the tendency to Fade is still there" -- and later advised the Closed condition referenced in 2-J-1.
So the Clubface is never set open for Angled Hinging (unless you want a fade). With short Shots it will be set Square and with longer Shots "more and more closed".
Remember with Angled Hinging, the Clubface effectively goes from 'Closed' to 'Open'.
Ouch, my thumb on the moon? LOL! I repeat myself: "Remember the thumb is not literally at the '3 o'clock' position. You are trying to place in such a way so that it supports the On Plane Thrust (per 1-L-10/11)."
Agreed. But since when did I mention the words "Accumulator #2"? This should be left out of the discussion.
Am I really so far off? Being correct may sometimes seem misleading. There were times when I though Homer got it wrong during my study of TGM. But eventually, I saw the light. Please read on.
Agreed: Hinge Action is executes a Clubface Motion during Impact Interval.
Slight disagreement/confusion: Where your Clubface is at Impact depends on your Hinge Action for a straightaway flight. So Hinge Action does control clubface alignment at Impact, whether you look at it as a motion or taking a snap shot during the motion.
Now we're getting to the core! Please take time to understand the following before attacking the messenger.
For Angled Hinging the Clubface is aligned at Impact Fix Closed to the Target Line per 2-J-1 -- and the longer the Shot the more Closed the Clubface. The further back the Ball is located toward the Right Foot, the more Closed the Clubface becomes to the Delivery Line and the Lag Pressure Point (7-11).
Homer taught a Square alignment in the earlier editions of TGM -- as opposed to Horizontal Hinging's Open alignment -- thinking that would be sufficient of offset the Slicing tendency. But he came to believe otherwise -- "the tendency to Fade is still there" -- and later advised the Closed condition referenced in 2-J-1.
So the Clubface is never set open for Angled Hinging (unless you want a fade). With short Shots it will be set Square and with longer Shots "more and more closed".
Remember with Angled Hinging, the Clubface effectively goes from 'Closed' to 'Open'.
When did I say it was strictly at "3 o clock" - I used the words
"the thumb aft directly behind the angle of approach providing onplane support at fix"
The only time would the thumb be at 3 o clock would be at low point providing a direct onplane support.
The no.2 accumulator going out of line and the advantages for visual checking, of having a truely flat and vertical left wrist was the whole point of my original post.
Yes, you are far off you said the clubface position</u> was to do with the hinge action when the hinge action produces a clubface motion that the clubface position must comply with - there is a big difference.
You changing your tune - you never said "clubface alignment</u>", you said "clubface position</u>" and again theres a big difference. Homer invented a precise terminology so we didn't have to have confusion and he used the word alignment in 1-L-4. Hinge action controls the clubface alignment whilst executing its respective motion but it never controls the clubface position.
Firstly, you quote 2-J-1 and yet fail to know that Homer said with short shots the clubface was mean't to be "slightly open" - not square ....
Secondly, The clubface opens on the backstroke with layback with an angled hinge and then closes with layback in the followthrough. It does not close on the backstroke and open again! - its a true half roll of the clubface relative to the inclined plane (no roll feel of the hands).
Thirdly, from slightly open - more and more closed has a different ring to it doesn't it ?
tongzilla
New
Yes, I agree that Clubface Alignment is the most correct term to use, but I really think for the sake of this discussion, using the word Position rather than Alignment really doesn't make a difference. But if you must insist that I am 'really far off', then so be it! Perhaps you can tell us the difference between Alignment and Position (interesting, although off topic!).
Like I said, Homer changed the "slightly open" comment. Please read my post again.
The Clubface is never set open for Angled Hinging (unless you want a fade). With short Shots it will be set Square and with longer Shots "more and more closed" (relative to Plane Line).
Side-spin is caused by the divergence between Clubhead Path and Clubface alignment. So relative to Clubhead Line of Flight, Clubface goes from Closed to Open for Angled Hinging. Yes, if you really want to understand what I've just said, you're gonna have to burn a few brain cells!
Like I said, Homer changed the "slightly open" comment. Please read my post again.
The Clubface is never set open for Angled Hinging (unless you want a fade). With short Shots it will be set Square and with longer Shots "more and more closed" (relative to Plane Line).
Side-spin is caused by the divergence between Clubhead Path and Clubface alignment. So relative to Clubhead Line of Flight, Clubface goes from Closed to Open for Angled Hinging. Yes, if you really want to understand what I've just said, you're gonna have to burn a few brain cells!
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2508&SearchTerms=flat
One is perfectly flat (manzella neutral style grip) and the other is anatomically or geometrically flat (strong single action style grip) or "lynn blake flat."
Brian Manzella
Administrator
"In the PLANE of the left arm FLYING WEDGE"
birdie_man
New
Great topic. Glad someone brought this one up.
I've been kinda unsure about "visually perfect-flat" vs. Anatomically Flat for a while.
Thanks.
-Paul
I've been kinda unsure about "visually perfect-flat" vs. Anatomically Flat for a while.
Thanks.
-Paul
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