Hand path questions for Brian

[gumper]

Brian,

Either in your next video on the downswing or in a separate video or explanation, could you please address the following:

From the perspective of a high handicapper, are we better off still thinking of starting the downswing from the ground up or should we now try to learn the correct hand path with the expectation that effective weight transfer will "come along for the ride" automatically? I'm trying to absorb all of the new knowledge, but I'm confused about this.

Also, I'd be very grateful if you could show the correct hand path from both a down-the-line angle and face-on (Let me shoot for the stars. I actually think that a camera placed above the golfer's head is the best view to get this info into our coconuts. Perhaps in a future production?).

Also, I know that you have stated that the out-toss is not for everyone. Is there a way for us to tell if it's appropriate without you seeing our swings?

I guess what I most want to know is whether or not there is a universal optimal hand path for all golfers.

Finally, for pitches and chips, is the optimal hand path a shorter version along the same path, or a somewhat differently shaped path?

Thanks a million.

gumper

 

[bertsmith]

Excellent questions, especially about the chips and pitches. Thanks for posting them.

 

[rafared]

All super questions. Looking forward to the responses. I have a feeling that they will be answered in detail in Brians next retail video.

 

[drewyallop]

Good questions. Answers may clear up some confusion.

 

[lia41985]

John Jacobs in Practical Golf:
<iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border:0px" src="http://books.google.com/books?id=PZUgoDRHnn4C&lpg=PA57&pg=PA57&output=embed" width=500 height=500></iframe>
The best anyone's ever done it:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CA2tcQ_hl7g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
From Sean Foley:

The previous motion obviously had its good points...like his ability from 6-iron down to just absolutely flag it.

From: http://www.pgatour.com/2012/tournaments/r494/10/22/wacker-sean-foley-interview-1/

 

[Kevin Shields]

Depends on the chip or pitch you want to hit. But for a standard mid sole pitch the hand path is very much the same so the upward motion can be utilized to take advantage of the bounce on a wedge.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Out toss is in fact for everyone. Some just don't need to focus on it . Also, there are different variations. Either way, a guard against jackknifing followed by a tangential move to start the downswing is an essential move to a good swing.

 

[gumper]

lia and Kevin, I appreciate your posts. I believe that I have the Jacobs book, which I will try to find. However, his work did not have the benefit of the scientific team, Trackman, etc.

Having said that, to me the out-toss question was the least important to me. What I'm really hoping for is a video where Brian would, in a slow motion (if not literally in slow motion) show the most optimal hand path (from a few different angles) that an average or below-average golfer can perform. I am a visual learner, so for me a picture is worth a thousand words and a video would be worth a thousand pictures.

I also think that being able to literally see a series of dots for the hand path would be very helpful for those of us who are visual learners and/or don't quite grasp the new information. Just from a curiosity standpoint, I'd also like to see a pro's series of dots so that I know the ideal path, but I'm ultimately much more interested in a hand path that a "Mr. Haversham" can repeat.

gumper

P.S.- I just did a search on "jackknifing." I could not find a video on it. Is there a video that I have not found that does show " a guard against jackknifing followed by a tangential move to start the downswing?" Believe me, I am not trying to be obnoxious. I appreciate your help, but I don't understand the terminology. With my own high school students, I can see their faces, so I know if I am using a term that someone doesn't understand. That's why I am hoping for a video. It's hard to precisely describe a motion in writing. I happen to be an excellent writer, but I can't describe, for example, a "curved path" to someone. What's the exact shape of the curve?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Have you seen ideas about the release video?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Gumper, I would still think your questions are going to be dependent on what you need. Brian has seen your swing and would know best what you should be focusing on. Every good swing should have some recovery (out toss) at the top, an away from the target move of the hands, a low point prior to the ball and a force normal to the swing at impact.

No reason Mr Haversham, or even Mr. Martin, couldn't do this

 

[sharkey35]

Video by MJ in this thread:

Video Aftermath Discussion

 

[DCgolf]

John Jacobs in Practical Golf:
<iframe frameborder="0" scrolling="no" style="border:0px" src="http://books.google.com/books?id=PZUgoDRHnn4C&lpg=PA57&pg=PA57&output=embed" width=500 height=500></iframe>
The best anyone's ever done it:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CA2tcQ_hl7g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
From Sean Foley:

From: Sean Foley Q&A: Exclusive interview with Tiger's coach - PGATOUR.COM

"T and R" as we called it. Note: look at the distance reference: "a star golfer can hit 250 yds.". My how times have changed. That's a Bubba 3 iron!!!

 

[wulsy]

That interview with Foley has just made me realise what a full of sheet kinda guy he is. He uses a hand held camera from any old angle and tells his pupils to "see" tha ball flight! I'd take a lesson from Dariusz before one from him.

 

[wulsy]

Brian, would you say that SF has learned a lot from you and is he regular forum user?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I'd take a lesson from Dariusz before one from him.

ROTFLIPR

 

[wulsy]

Glad you liked it, but no sheet, I meant it!

 

[gumper]

Kevin,

I just re- watched the "New Ideas about the Release" video. It was helpful to watch it again, but my questions still hold. There are segments that show hand path, but mainly in the out-toss stage. I'd still like to see a series of dots of the entire hand path from different angles, especially from the perspective of the golfer's eyes. I rarely see videos shot from that angle, but that is how we look at the ball. From any other angle, we have to transpose what we see to what we actually need to do. I realize the difficulty of setting up cameras that way, but I believe that the 3D systems provide that view. Hey, I never said that this would be easy

Sharkey, thanks for the heads-up of Michael's jackknife explanation. Now I understand that term.

gumper, hoping not to lose power

 

[spktho]

Lia posted a video of Gary Player from the top view looking down that showed it pretty well. I'll look for it, but if anyone else finds it first, it may help.

Found it:

 

[lia41985]

Brian made some good ones:
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/34442274?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="525" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/37186508?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="394" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
Also read this:

The "OUT-TOSS" is a feel that a golfer may employ to help him get from the top of the swing to a location later in the downswing.

During the US OPEN, I gave nearly 200 lessons at the Sports Illustrated at the Majors promotion in Union Square. I didn't use the concet one single time.

But, this month, I have used it, or something like it, on a couple of students.

It usually works for folks who have poor hand paths from the top of the swing, often due to an attempt by the golfer to artificially move their hands toward—or near—the ball.

In version "A" above, the inset of Tiger at impact was used to "grab" his impact arms, and rotate them to the top of the swing. This "OUT-TOSS" will feel like the golfer is lining up his arms and club from the top, usually in the directions shown.

Obviously, this is done when the golfer is making a normal downswing pivot, but it is often accompanied by the feeling of keeping the back to the target.

In version "B" above, the inset of Tiger just past last parallel was used to "grab" his arm hand and club location, and rotate them to the top of the swing. This "OUT-TOSS" will feel like the golfer is lining up his arms from the top, often for width purposes, and the club portion will on have a little bit of a toss component.

Again, this is done when the golfer is making a normal downswing pivot, but it is often accompanied by the feeling of keeping the back to the target.

The "OUT-TOSS" is feel or suggestion for a feel, that fits only a small percentage of the overall golf population, but a far greater percentage of folks taught to aim their hands way forward, and never line the club up—but let some mysterious force do it for them.

BManz

According to Alex Dee of Fujikura, ENSO-pro measurements are showing that closure rate is NOT adding significantly to clubhead speed.

"You have to keep in mind that the shaft is deformed at impact and not a straight shaft. Most people think that when they rotate the (grip end of the club), the head will rotate about the hosel. Not true. Because the shaft is drooping toe down at impact, it behaves like a center shafted putter. Imagine a center shafted putter and what happens when you rotate the handle: the portion of the face that is from the heel to the shaft is actually rotating away from target and taking away head velocity (due to the [grip] rotation). We see closure rates maybe adding about 2mph for near center impacts. However, since turning the handle on a deformed club makes the hosel move backwards about 2mph, the velocities basically cancel out."

​

In Alex's opinion, fast closure rates contribute greatly to rotation on the y-axis (see picture below) which ENSO-pro shows to contribute about 80% of the overall club head speed (the largest contributor).

Thanks so much to Alex for all his help, and to Mike Finney for his many communications with Alex, and to Dr. Steven Nesbit for all his help the last couple of years.

POPSE (Project 1.68)...the best information on how the golf swing really works, and what to do with the information.

The first pic at the top, and in the bottom sequence are the ACTUAL positions.

The next (red) pic at the top is the position where the bottom sequence starts, ROTATED to isolate the arm/shoulder/hand movement, as independent of the pivot as possible.

Same with the bottom sequence.

Lots to learn here....

More Rory:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pvm0TfFAlyY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[66er]

When do you need out-toss? Just swing back to the top of your backswing pause and ask yourself " in what direction do I normally apply force?" If the answer is "I pull this grip with all my effort at the ball". Then you need out-toss, the out-toss is just a feel or a drill to prevent golfers from doing this. Once you get rid of pulling the grip straight towards the ball get your back to the target and work on the fiddle drill.

Not an expert here just my understanding, hopefully Brian will chime in here.